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PullinCrazy88
09-21-2008, 09:18 PM
skills4lou thanks for the advice i think i may try that next. theres not to much more i can think it would be, but im no ASE sertified machanic either. do you have any idea where the sensor it located at. is it on the front of the block or the back

xx_ED_xx
09-21-2008, 09:21 PM
crank sensor is on the front behind the balancer

N0DIH
09-21-2008, 10:20 PM
Crank sensor whacked shouldn't prevent it from starting, cam sensor, yup, won't start. Being it has a dizzy, it is only used for misfire detect.

Can you pull codes at all? If CMP Retard is too far off, means distrib got moved too far out of position. It won't start or will run very badly. It has a limited range to work with. Mine is -8 degrees and I CAN'T physically get it closer, but it does run fine and no faults.

Things to think about for no start conditions:
1. No fuel, no start. Is fuel pump running when you first turn key on, it should for a couple seconds or so, but may take a few minutes to run like that again.
2. No spark, no start. Coil good? Ign module good?
3. Cam Sensor good? If PCM doesn't know where #1 is, then it will never give the injectors a command to start to deliver fuel.
4. Is VATS on? I had a PCM that I reflashed and it got fussy with me and would never start. I finally reflashed with VATS off, and it is fine. Not sure what its major malfunction, but whatever it isn't gonna give me problems again.... Mine would start to TRY to restart, but would always die.

Think of it this way: Got spark, got fuel, got injector PW, you have start....

Sandwich, IL, hop skip and a jump away.... I am in Rockford by mall...

bankspowered98
09-22-2008, 06:23 AM
When my crank sensor went out the truck would just turn over without fire...

likearock454
09-22-2008, 10:57 AM
Definately check fuel pressure, being it is now on both banks pump could be going, also replace fuel filter (I know you probably have already but trust me I have seen that alot). Just curious what is your fuel mileage with your rpms down that low? Must be pretty decent. How much was the overdrive setup?

Changed the fuel filter again and checked the fuel pressure.
50-54lbs KOEO
48-50lbs KOER

No bleed off once the key is shut off for like 5 minutes.

Is this low enough to cause this motor to run lean?

It seems that it only throws lean codes when I am on the highway. Around town I can reset the computer and the SES light will stay out till I go on the highway or on a long stretch of road @ like 50-55

PullinCrazy88
09-22-2008, 08:48 PM
thanks for the ideas guys but the truck does start and run. just when its been ran within the past 4-5 hours it has a hard time starting. when its cold it fires right up. and the truck runs just fine. yes i can pull codes but the only one i remember was a coolent temp senser and i replaced it. never went away and the truck does not over heat and still reads fine on the dash so i just disabled the code. there was another one to thought i dont remember. ill scan it tomorrow and post the code.

skills4lou
09-23-2008, 09:57 PM
PC88: I see you replaced three injectors, but what about the rest? Mine (and a lot of other's) had the hard start when warm problem, and cured it with a complete new set of injectors. JMHO

rx7gslse
09-24-2008, 01:40 PM
Ok gurus... Got another one for ya...

My truck has had an ever so slight 'hesitation' at idle since I've owned it (~1yr) Well.. lately that's turned into a rather pronounced stumbling at idle. (followed by a compensating surge a moment later)

Well now it's gotten bad enough that it has occiasionally died whiel at a red light or something. Granted, all along not throwing a CEL. How lax are these Check engien lights that the motor can sputte and die and not even throw a code?

Only code it was throwing was for an O2 sensor.. I replaced those and it improved slightly for a few day (maybe just wishful thinking) but went right back to it's sputtering surging idle again..

Granted it's been awhile since it's had a tuneup, so that's my 1st items to attack.. (plugs, wires, cap, rotor) What else should I be lookin at? Cleaned the MAF out well when I did the O2 sensors too. It runs fine at speed or driving around, doesn't seem down on power (3/4ton on 35s has never felt sprightly)

99 K2500 Suburban 454, stock motor w/ 198k miles.

TIA!

-Eric

PullinCrazy88
09-24-2008, 04:40 PM
the reason i only replaced three was they were the only ones leaking off pressure with the key on an motor off. and i didnt want to spend anymore money because i am planning on doing motor work and will need a bigger sent of injectors anyways.

wtd
09-25-2008, 12:52 AM
For you guys that are running aftermarket exhaust on your 7.4's what sounds good? I want to replace the muffler on my 98 RCLB 4x4 with the 454. I've been thinking of using a 5x11x22 Magnaflow but I cant find any sound clips of this muffler on a 7.4. Any other suggestions?

Wayne

N0DIH
09-25-2008, 09:12 AM
I need to, was going to leave stock system alone and just replace muffler with a pair of Magnaflows like a friend of mine did on his 03 Avalanche 8100. Sounds great and runs wonderful (16.3@86 mph for 7000 lbs and an otherwise mefflers, it is a stock 8.1L engine with a very mild PCM tune on it, didn't have the time to play that night, should have been able to get more hp out of it, but didn't get the opportunity)

nufnuffz28
09-25-2008, 10:59 AM
Ok gurus... Got another one for ya...

My truck has had an ever so slight 'hesitation' at idle since I've owned it (~1yr) Well.. lately that's turned into a rather pronounced stumbling at idle. (followed by a compensating surge a moment later)

Well now it's gotten bad enough that it has occiasionally died whiel at a red light or something. Granted, all along not throwing a CEL. How lax are these Check engien lights that the motor can sputte and die and not even throw a code?

Only code it was throwing was for an O2 sensor.. I replaced those and it improved slightly for a few day (maybe just wishful thinking) but went right back to it's sputtering surging idle again..

Granted it's been awhile since it's had a tuneup, so that's my 1st items to attack.. (plugs, wires, cap, rotor) What else should I be lookin at? Cleaned the MAF out well when I did the O2 sensors too. It runs fine at speed or driving around, doesn't seem down on power (3/4ton on 35s has never felt sprightly)

99 K2500 Suburban 454, stock motor w/ 198k miles.

TIA!

-Eric
i know this sounds REALLLY out of left field, but are you running 93 octane gas?
my truck does the same thing on 93, and generally runs like ass, but on regular 89 it runs wayyyyyy better.

rx7gslse
09-25-2008, 11:47 AM
i know this sounds REALLLY out of left field, but are you running 93 octane gas?
my truck does the same thing on 93, and generally runs like ass, but on regular 89 it runs wayyyyyy better.


93? no way.. too $$$ at 42 gallons a time :)


In fact, it's pretty much the opposite. a Mix of 87, and whatever octane the cheapest gas in Mexico is (like 83 probably?) :lol:

elkhunter
09-25-2008, 08:45 PM
I have run premium unleaded in my 454 since I bought it 7 years ago and mine doesn't do that. I did a test a few years back using all 3 grades of fuel. It might just be a coincidence but after a month running each grade I actually found it was cheaper for me to run premium than the other grades. It may be a fluke, who knows, but that is how it is. Don't have a clue why either.

skills4lou
09-27-2008, 04:31 PM
Well, I have a scan tool on the way, hopefully I can use that to do some data logging and have you guys help me figure out my P0175 issue. After doing some reading on other threads in here I'm wondering if I don't have a bad MAF sensor, in addition to an IAC valve acting up. Here's the issues again:
P0507 (high idle)
P0175 (bank 2 rich)

Idle varies from ~650 to ~900 rpms depending on temp and whether AC is on. While driving I do notice an occasional very mild surging, but it's very sporadic and feels like the IAC is just acting up. MPG's have dropped ~1.5mpg over the course of 2 years.

I've replaced the upper intake gaskets, FPR, injectors and IAC valve. I also cleaned the MAF sensor with electrical parts cleaner. Thinking it was a vacuum leak I've checked everything I can think of using the engine running/spray cleaner method, and the idle stayed rock steady. The PCV valve is working (flows only one way-towards the intake). EGR valve seems clean, replaced the gasket there too.
So, is it possible the MAF sensor is bad and causing the P0175 code? If so, how can I test that? My scan tool won't be here for a few days yet, so I'm using my VOM this weekend.
Thanks!

N0DIH
09-28-2008, 12:11 PM
Scanner helps a lot. P0175 is saying that the PCM saw the STFT, aka, the A/D (analog to digital) representation of the O2 sensors on bank 2 was less than 128 BLM/LTFT and never went higher than 128 (or 0% if you like %, I don't...) for more than 2 minutes. So it is saying in plain english that it was not able to control the fuel mix and lean it out enough. Often that means that there is fuel getting into the engine controlled somehow, OR airflow in that bank is restricted somehow.

Common problems: FPR (but if seen, you most likely would see a P0172 at the same time), leaky injector(s) (these are common to bank specific issue), bad O2 (swap bank 1 and 2 sensors first and see if issue moves), bad ground on the exhaust, wrong O2 (non GM can cause this, as some don't have proper grounding of the Sensor LOW line to the sensor shell). O2 wiring to the PCM, bad PCM (like I had once, a spark plug wire zapped an O2 sensor from a bad wire), or exhaust leaks BEFORE the O2. Poor plugs, wires, cap.

MAF, CTS, IAT are NOT bank specific, so I would not address them. Think what is unique to a bank. So in most cases these would not affect a bank only issue. BUT the scan tool will show that if the other bank is just on the edge of failing, then it would be a common issue.


Well, I have a scan tool on the way, hopefully I can use that to do some data logging and have you guys help me figure out my P0175 issue. After doing some reading on other threads in here I'm wondering if I don't have a bad MAF sensor, in addition to an IAC valve acting up. Here's the issues again:
P0507 (high idle)
P0175 (bank 2 rich)

Idle varies from ~650 to ~900 rpms depending on temp and whether AC is on. While driving I do notice an occasional very mild surging, but it's very sporadic and feels like the IAC is just acting up. MPG's have dropped ~1.5mpg over the course of 2 years.

I've replaced the upper intake gaskets, FPR, injectors and IAC valve. I also cleaned the MAF sensor with electrical parts cleaner. Thinking it was a vacuum leak I've checked everything I can think of using the engine running/spray cleaner method, and the idle stayed rock steady. The PCV valve is working (flows only one way-towards the intake). EGR valve seems clean, replaced the gasket there too.
So, is it possible the MAF sensor is bad and causing the P0175 code? If so, how can I test that? My scan tool won't be here for a few days yet, so I'm using my VOM this weekend.
Thanks!

skills4lou
09-28-2008, 12:48 PM
Is the fuel trim bank specific, injector specific, or does the PCM just trim back all the injectors? I can't find any exhaust leaks, the O2 sensors are all OE, so I think I'm gonna try the O2 swap. Any words of wisdom on removing them without damage?
Hope to have my scanner this week, what should I be looking at other than fuel trims?

N0DIH
09-28-2008, 01:20 PM
Being it is banked, it only changes PW on the bank of injectors not the individual. Maybe someday they will get that much power in the PCM.

I look for a simple thing, cold start (engine sat for a long time), IAT and CTS should be very close to each other in value. Timing will vary at idle, that is one of the ways GM manages a stable idle. The IAC is sorta slow at managing idle, the PCM can command timing changes very quickly.

If you are getting varying idle, you can disconnect the IAC once it is running and see if it stabilizes. Always ensure the passages are clean and the throttle body is clean (454's are inherently pretty good at keeping a clean TB because the PCV vent side comes in not before the blade, that is a good design compared to most).

Removing O2's. COLD. Do not every try hot. Always use Antiseize on the threads. I use a wrench, do my darnedest to get the box end on it to break it free. Most cases once free it will come out by hand. I have personally not had any problems with removing them.

Rear O2's are not the same connectors as front, so you can't swap front to back, but the sensor itself is the same.

O2 sensor wires are stainless steel, so you can't solder on them if you wanna cut them out and do it that way (not recommended), you have to get a good crimp like something wire nut style where you can twist the wires and then crimp. Those are the only solid ones.


Is the fuel trim bank specific, injector specific, or does the PCM just trim back all the injectors? I can't find any exhaust leaks, the O2 sensors are all OE, so I think I'm gonna try the O2 swap. Any words of wisdom on removing them without damage?
Hope to have my scanner this week, what should I be looking at other than fuel trims?

GIMECHANIC_454
09-28-2008, 01:30 PM
wow there are 39 pages of post i want to be added to the 454 club lmao ... i cant remeber if i replied here or not

N0DIH
09-28-2008, 02:52 PM
Welcome! Yup, growing lots of BBOSS members! Glad to see, the few the proud, the BB's that pull the world around!

Big Block Owners Secret Society....


wow there are 39 pages of post i want to be added to the 454 club lmao ... i cant remeber if i replied here or not

skills4lou
09-28-2008, 05:45 PM
Hey GIMech, Welcome! Are you the same guy that was looking for help with GM's Security system a year or so back?

NODIH, thanks as always for the info. If you're ever in DE I'm buying the beer and BBQ supplies!

jp1584
09-30-2008, 10:35 AM
hey guys maybe you can point me in the right direction. i have a 2000 2500 with the 7.4. i just replaced the fuel pressure regulator and that fixed my warm start problem. the truck runs awesome after replacing this but know the truck will completley shut off when i am driving it. there is no warning or anything all the electrical seems to be working just fine . my check engine light does not come on or nothing shorts out in the cab while i am driving. The truck will just shut off and i have to pop it in neutral to start it up again if i am rolling. the truck only has 51,000 miles on it. the truck was having this problem before i took off the upper plenium to change out the regulator. if anybody knows anything let me know. I appreciate it

wtd
09-30-2008, 02:07 PM
[QUOTE=N0DIH].





Removing O2's. COLD. Do not every try hot. Always use Antiseize on the threads. I use a wrench, do my darnedest to get the box end on it to break it free. Most cases once free it will come out by hand. I have personally not had any problems with removing them.

why are you not supposed to remove O2 sensors when hot? Everyone has told me to heat the sensor base up if they are stuck.

Wayne

skills4lou
09-30-2008, 06:46 PM
Alright, I got the cable and did a few seconds of logging. NODIH, I'll PM you the file (it's a txt file) and see if you can see anything, if you don't mind.

The file is after the truck had warmed up a bit. The cold start temp the IAT and CTS where exactly the same: 69 degrees.
If anyone know of some good software to use for datalogging lemme know please. The cable has the ELM327 chip, firmware ver1.2a, and baud rate is 38400.

Yes, I'm excited about this. Dang cool stuff right there!

N0DIH
09-30-2008, 09:57 PM
Cool, what software are you using? scantools.net? That is what I used to use on my old ELM scanner (not ELM327, the older slower one, for sale if anyone is interested, not real fast, but it will log data and clear codes)


Alright, I got the cable and did a few seconds of logging. NODIH, I'll PM you the file (it's a txt file) and see if you can see anything, if you don't mind.

The file is after the truck had warmed up a bit. The cold start temp the IAT and CTS where exactly the same: 69 degrees.
If anyone know of some good software to use for datalogging lemme know please. The cable has the ELM327 chip, firmware ver1.2a, and baud rate is 38400.

Yes, I'm excited about this. Dang cool stuff right there!

If you try hot it will seize and likely break if it is stuck. But doing it cold and hitting a torch on the outside (not the sensor itself) can start to expand that steel and might be just enough to break it free. But heating up the sensor first could expand it into the bung and make it tighter.


[QUOTE=N0DIH].
Removing O2's. COLD. Do not every try hot. Always use Antiseize on the threads. I use a wrench, do my darnedest to get the box end on it to break it free. Most cases once free it will come out by hand. I have personally not had any problems with removing them.

why are you not supposed to remove O2 sensors when hot? Everyone has told me to heat the sensor base up if they are stuck.

Wayne

skills4lou
10-01-2008, 08:38 AM
I have a couple different programs I using. I downloaded Scantools.net lastest version, but they have it set up to only work with their hardware. It came with v1.3, which works, but doesn't support logging.
I also have a beta of wOBD that I did some logging with on the way to work this am, but the log is only readable by that program. I have a couple other free ones I'll try, but I might wind up with one that costs $89 from GLM software. It's supposed to export log files as an Excel file.

N0DIH
10-01-2008, 08:42 AM
You are right, I forgot, Scantools.net software doesn't log, there are free loggers out there, so look on that site in the software section, you'll find it. Some tools are better than others, some just stink.

I have MXScan and EFILive for scanning. EFILive is the bomb for scanning. MXScan (not sure if it will work with ELM) is ok, not great, but seems to be going unsupported, as James the programmer has gone incognito. monodax.com is that site. $69 for that one. Free demo, so you can try it out.


I have a couple different programs I using. I downloaded Scantools.net lastest version, but they have it set up to only work with their hardware. It came with v1.3, which works, but doesn't support logging.
I also have a beta of wOBD that I did some logging with on the way to work this am, but the log is only readable by that program. I have a couple other free ones I'll try, but I might wind up with one that costs $89 from GLM software. It's supposed to export log files as an Excel file.

skills4lou
10-01-2008, 07:33 PM
sorry, some sort of system freak out!

skills4lou
10-01-2008, 07:33 PM
alright, I have no idea WTF is going on with the site, but I'm done for tonight. Too much time fighting computers.

skills4lou
10-02-2008, 04:33 AM
Let's try again this morning:
I can't get EFILive to recognize my cable. COM port is set right, drivers work with other programs, so I'm thinking it's set to only work with their hardware. Dammit!
I used wOBD to log on my way home last night, but it only saves the log in .txt files. If anyone wants to look at it pm your email address to me please.

skills4lou
10-02-2008, 04:37 AM
OK, I figured out how to paste the data here, but it loses all tab/spacing apparently. The 4-8th numbers are the fuel trims. It popped a P0175 during this log.

Car1 Polling Setup 10/1/2008 5:08:11 PM

Sec(s) CEL(%) Temp(F) Stft1 Ltft1 Stft2 Ltft2 FPr MAP(psi)RPM mph IAdvDeg)IAT(F) (gm/sec)TPS(%) 1-1(v) 1-2(v) O2 Sensor 2-1 2-2Volts
3 0.78 89.6 0 0 0 0 14.5 80.6 2.45 0 0.265 0.605 0.62
8 0.78 89.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 9.57 93 0 0 80.6 22.79 0 0.23 0.57
14 7.05 89.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 4.495 1246 0 23.5 80.6 15.16 0 0.945 0.59 1.005 0.595
19 4.7 89.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.075 902 0 22.5 80.6 14.3 0 0.905 0.58 0.99 0.585
25 4.7 89.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.075 887 0 23.5 80.6 17.13 0 0.87 0.56 0.955 0.585
31 5.49 89.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 6.525 777 1.243 25 80.6 18.33 0 0.85 0.55 0.94 0.56
36 5.88 91.4 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.8 916 4.972 25 80.6 40.74 5.49 0.85 0.545 0.92 0.575
42 14.5 91.4 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 7.54 1541 9.944 28.5 80.6 50.35 10.19 0.835 0.56 0.92 0.54
47 16.86 91.4 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.22 1575 18.645 28 80.6 19.83 0 0.86 0.535 0.92 0.58
53 6.27 95 0 -6.25 0 -4.6875 4.205 1347 18.645 29 80.6 25.89 2.74 0.825 0.52 0.92 0.59
59 7.05 96.8 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 4.495 1318 18.645 29 80.6 18.95 0 0.845 0.555 0.92 0.585
64 6.27 96.8 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.655 1010 13.0515 25 80.6 16.89 0 0.825 0.54 0.92 0.605
70 5.09 96.8 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 6.09 814 0 23 80.6 16.4 2.74 0.85 0.54 0.92 0.585
76 5.49 100.4 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.655 919 4.3505 25 80.6 40.57 5.49 0.825 0.565 0.925 0.58
81 17.25 102.2 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 8.845 1549 12.43 28.5 80.6 51.86 10.98 0.87 0.555 0.925 0.625
87 16.86 102.2 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 8.265 1560 21.131 29 80.6 44.58 9.8 0.88 0.56 0.935 0.635
92 7.05 105.8 0 -3.9062 0 -4.6875 4.35 1275 25.4815 28.5 80.6 19.16 0 0.895 0.565 0.955 0.605
98 6.27 107.6 0 -3.9062 0 -4.6875 4.64 1218 24.86 28.5 80.6 17.15 0 0.905 0.55 0.94 0.605
103 5.49 107.6 0 -3.9062 0 -4.6875 4.495 1200 24.2385 28.5 80.6 17.34 0 0.9 0.56 0.94 0.615
109 5.88 111.2 0 -3.9062 0 -4.6875 4.93 1170 22.9955 28.5 80.6 18.51 0 0.9 0.54 0.93 0.62
115 5.88 113 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.075 1119 21.7525 28.5 80.6 43.98 0.78 0.905 0.55 0.935 0.615
120 14.9 113 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 7.83 1554 23.617 28.5 80.6 22.87 0 0.92 0.565 0.935 0.645
126 6.27 116.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 4.64 1275 25.4815 28.5 80.6 24.62 1.56 0.92 0.585 0.945 0.63
131 8.62 118.4 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.8 1339 25.4815 30.5 80.6 18.45 0.39 0.92 0.565 0.925 0.63
137 7.05 118.4 -2.3437 -7.0312 -4.6875 -7.03125 5.51 1350 25.4815 28.5 78.8 28.02 3.52 0.09 0.465 0.91 0.305
143 9.01 118.4 -3.125 -10.156 -7.03125 -9.375 5.8 1358 26.103 31.5 78.8 26.39 2.74 0.125 0.165 0.105 0.23
148 9.41 122 1.5625 -10.156 -3.90625 -11.71875 6.235 1384 25.4815 25 78.8 28.4 4.31 0.205 0.13 0.1 0.215
154 9.01 123.8 -0.7812 -10.937 -2.34375 -13.28125 5.655 1360 26.103 31.5 78.8 27.25 2.74 0.82 0.16 0.85 0.205
159 8.62 123.8 0.78125 -10.937 -1.5625 -14.0625 7.25 1379 25.4815 30.5 78.8 37.5 7.05 0.735 0.115 0.12 0.225
165 10.98 127.4 -0.7812 -12.5 0 -15.625 6.09 1400 26.103 29.5 78.8 26.39 3.13 0.125 0.165 0.115 0.175
171 9.01 129.2 0.78125 -12.5 0 -15.625 5.8 1369 26.103 31 78.8 29.76 4.31 0.1 0.165 0.11 0.155
176 10.58 129.2 -1.5625 -12.5 0 -15.625 6.67 1402 25.4815 27.5 78.8 32.1 5.49 0.895 0.18 0.765 0.38
182 5.88 132.8 -4.6875 -7.8125 -14.0625 -7.8125 4.93 1105 22.374 28 78.8 16.27 0 0.31 0.3 0.865 0.15
187 6.27 134.6 -3.125 -7.8125 -6.25 -7.8125 4.93 1199 15.5375 28 78.8 26.02 2.74 0.775 0.425 0.835 0.15
193 9.01 134.6 -6.25 -3.9062 1.5625 -14.0625 5.945 1298 16.159 30 78.8 17.26 0 0.93 0.135 0.055 0.46
199 5.49 138.2 0.78125 -9.375 -5.46875 -8.59375 5.22 1050 14.2945 27.5 78.8 37.45 0 0.59 0.315 0.79 0.14
205 18.43 140 -7.0312 -8.5937 -8.59375 -7.8125 9.715 1599 12.43 28 78.8 101.39 24.7 0.755 0.23 0.895 0.205
210 44.7 140 -3.125 -7.0312 -3.125 -6.25 13.34 2534 28.589 16.5 75.2 170.65 48.23 0.13 0.35 0.44 0.245
216 58.43 143.6 -0.7812 -13.281 -11.71875 -15.625 4.785 2205 45.991 17.5 75.2 35.3 0 0.085 0.66 0.855 0.19
222 10.58 145.4 -0.7812 -14.062 -1.5625 -16.40625 5.075 1628 44.748 27 75.2 21.03 0 0.67 0.515 0.81 0.395
227 6.66 149 -3.9062 -9.375 -3.90625 -10.15625 4.205 1499 42.262 27 75.2 32.5 3.52 0.135 0.51 0.14 0.12
233 22.74 150.8 -3.9062 -10.937 -7.03125 -10.15625 11.31 1498 42.262 25 75.2 61.15 16.47 0.735 0.57 0.89 0.425
239 18.03 154.4 2.34375 -13.281 -1.5625 -17.1875 6.96 1628 46.6125 25.5 75.2 27.99 3.13 0.8 0.43 0.745 0.13
244 9.41 156.2 -2.3437 -13.281 0.78125 -17.96875 5.8 1573 45.3695 30 75.2 34.96 4.31 0.85 0.455 0.08 0.12
250 16.86 156.2 -2.3437 -14.062 -4.6875 -13.28125 9.425 1560 44.1265 24 75.2 51.58 11.37 0.71 0.47 0.075 0.1
255 15.68 159.8 0.78125 -14.062 0.78125 -17.96875 6.67 1619 45.991 26.5 75.2 21.75 0 0.815 0.525 0.095 0.095
261 6.27 161.6 -3.125 -10.937 -3.90625 -9.375 6.09 968 19.888 25.5 75.2 15.88 0 0.055 0.56 0.895 0.14
267 4.7 161.6 -4.6875 -8.5937 -6.25 -9.375 6.09 808 0 21 75.2 11.14 0 0.755 0.66 0.855 0.235
272 3.52 165.2 0 -6.25 -1.5625 -10.9375 6.09 663 0 23 75.2 15.39 0 0.22 0.655 0.195 0.105
278 4.31 167 -2.3437 -7.8125 -4.6875 -8.59375 6.38 678 0 22 75.2 10.74 0 0.125 0.735 0.855 0.1
284 3.52 167 -1.5625 -9.375 -2.34375 -10.9375 6.38 626 0 24.5 75.2 10.6 0 0.17 0.735 0.745 0.07
289 3.52 167 -3.125 -14.062 -2.34375 -14.84375 8.12 1038 0 22.5 75.2 74.59 16.86 0.915 0.75 0.735 0.205
295 27.05 170.6 1.5625 -14.062 0 -15.625 11.02 2039 20.5095 23 75.2 85.51 22.35 0.095 0.72 0.59 0.21
301 29.01 170.6 0 -13.281 1.5625 -15.625 11.165 2093 32.9395 17 75.2 80.94 22.35 0.845 0.66 0.64 0.485
306 22.35 172.4 -5.4687 -14.062 -1.5625 -16.40625 9.57 1871 41.019 25.5 75.2 32 0 0.85 0.63 0.785 0.155
312 20.39 172.4 8.59375 -9.375 2.34375 -10.15625 4.64 1521 43.505 25 75.2 17.11 0 0.03 0.67 0.745 0.12
318 4.7 176 -6.25 -7.03125 -0.78125 -8.59375 3.77 1311 39.1545 26 75.2 12.62 0 0.81 0.18 0.745 0.53
323 4.31 177.8 -6.25 -10.9375 -9.375 -9.375 5.075 875 25.4815 25.5 75.2 11.9 0 0.06 0.195 0.845 0.43
329 3.92 177.8 -3.125 -9.375 -6.25 -10.15625 6.09 707 8.701 75.2 10.62 0 0.065 0.145 0.28 0.11
334 3.52 181.4 -2.3437 -10.15625 -0.78125 -10.9375 6.235 623 0 23.5 75.2 10.52 0 0.835 0.165 0.085 0.08
340 3.52 183.2 0 -9.375 -1.5625 -10.9375 5.945 671 0 22.5 75.2 10.6 0 0.84 0.165 0.43 0.075
346 3.52 183.2 -0.7812 -9.375 -0.78125 -10.9375 5.945 672 0 22.5 75.2 10.57 0 0.14 0.19 0.72 0.07
351 3.52 186.8 0 -10.15625 -1.5625 -11.71875 6.235 629 0 23 75.2 10.51 0 0.705 0.205 0.815 0.065
357 3.52 186.8 1.5625 -6.25 0.78125 -11.71875 6.235 623 0 23.5 75.2 45.64 8.23 0.73 0.215 0.48 0.145
363 17.64 188.6 2.34375 -16.40625 0 -17.96875 9.86 1839 11.8085 25.5 75.2 65.02 15.68 0.785 0.495 0.82 0.115
368 23.13 188.6 0.78125 -15.625 1.5625 -17.96875 10.295 1828 24.2385 26 75.2 72.32 18.43 0.85 0.515 0.565 0.205
374 24.31 188.6 0.78125 -14.84375 0.78125 -17.96875 10.15 1958 33.561 25 75.2 73.95 19.21 0.105 0.51 0.725 0.115
380 24.7 188.6 1.5625 -14.84375 0 -17.1875 10.295 1958 41.019 25 75.2 60.68 16.86 0.73 0.435 0.38 0.17
385 20.39 188.6 -0.7812 -14.84375 0.78125 -17.1875 9.715 1593 45.3695 21 75.2 54.52 13.72 0.17 0.595 0.115 0.49
391 11.37 192.2 0 -14.0625 -1.5625 -17.1875 7.395 1642 46.6125 29.5 75.2 38.86 8.23 0.51 0.73 0.07 0.095
397 12.94 194 0 -14.0625 -0.78125 -17.1875 6.38 1662 47.234 28.5 75.2 32.71 5.88 0.255 0.7 0.39 0.085
402 10.58 194 -0.7812 -14.0625 0 -17.1875 6.235 1624 46.6125 29.5 75.2 33.65 6.27 0.13 0.69 0.75 0.065
408 10.98 197.6 -1.5625 -14.0625 -0.78125 -17.1875 6.38 1611 45.991 29.5 75.2 33.76 6.27 0.595 0.68 0.82 0.065
413 12.15 197.6 0.78125 -15.625 -0.78125 -17.96875 7.975 1605 45.991 28 73.4 41.68 9.01 0.79 0.665 0.825 0.075
419 14.11 197.6 4.6875 -15.625 -0.78125 -17.96875 7.685 1653 47.234 27.5 73.4 33.27 5.49 0.81 0.655 0.135 0.085
425 10.58 197.6 0.78125 -14.84375 0 -17.1875 5.655 1625 46.6125 30 73.4 30.56 5.49 0.745 0.66 0.77 0.075
431 9.8 197.6 -2.3437 -14.84375 0 -17.1875 6.09 1575 45.3695 30 73.4 34.6 7.05 0.735 0.655 0.105 0.08
436 11.76 194 11.7187 -7.03125 5.46875 -8.59375 5.655 1579 44.748 28.5 73.4 15.23 0 0.86 0.525 0.805 0.07
442 5.09 194 -0.7812 -5.46875 0 -7.8125 3.625 1458 42.262 26 73.4 15.13 0 0.825 0.295 0.755 0.065
447 4.7 194 -1.5625 -5.46875 0.78125 -7.8125 3.77 1364 39.1545 26 73.4 13.69 0 0.605 0.255 0.07 0.08
453 3.92 194 -10.937 -11.71875 -10.9375 -11.71875 5.075 908 26.103 25.5 73.4 11.84 0 0.075 0.265 0.795 0.055
459 3.92 194 -2.3437 -13.28125 -2.34375 -12.5 5.365 786 8.701 25 73.4 10.58 0 0.065 0.185 0.79 0.08
465 3.52 194 0.78125 -11.71875 -1.5625 -12.5 5.945 684 0 22 75.2 10.59 0 0.065 0.2 0.685 0.05
470 3.52 194 0 -10.9375 -1.5625 -11.71875 6.235 629 0 22.5 75.2 10.57 0 0.095 0.2 0.805 0.055
476 3.13 194 0.78125 -10.9375 0.78125 -11.71875 6.235 635 0 23 75.2 10.49 0 0.14 0.215 0.835 0.065
481 3.52 194 3.125 -10.9375 2.34375 -11.71875 5.945 681 0 22 75.2 10.58 0 0.83 0.225 0.475 0.06
487 3.52 194 -0.7812 -10.9375 0.78125 -11.71875 5.8 684 0 22 75.2 10.44 0 0.81 0.23 0.23 0.065
493 4.31 194 -3.125 -7.03125 -3.125 -7.03125 4.785 1035 0 20 75.2 10.71 0 0.73 0.25 0.875 0.06
498 3.52 194 -0.7812 -7.03125 -3.125 -7.03125 4.64 844 0 21 75.2 10.53 0 0.57 0.24 0.05 0.055
504 3.52 194 -3.125 -7.8125 -2.34375 -9.375 4.64 858 0 21 75.2 10.66 0 0.27 0.24 0.57 0.065
509 3.52 194 -0.7812 -10.9375 -3.90625 -10.9375 5.22 749 0 21 75.2 10.64 0 0.065 0.25 0.775 0.05
515 3.52 194 -2.3437 -13.28125 -1.5625 -13.28125 4.64 852 0 21 78.8 63.94 12.94 0.775 0.25 0.73 0.145
521 22.74 194 2.34375 -15.625 0 -17.1875 10.295 1946 15.5375 26 80.6 69.77 17.64 0.68 0.43 0.745 0.095
527 22.35 194 2.34375 -14.84375 0 -17.1875 10.295 1836 27.346 23.5 80.6 60.35 17.64 0.1 0.43 0.11 0.165
532 21.56 194 3.125 -14.0625 0 -16.40625 9.135 1823 34.804 25.5 80.6 36.19 8.23 0.545 0.445 0.86 0.095
538 6.66 192.2 0.78125 -12.5 10.9375 -14.84375 4.785 1379 37.9115 18.5 80.6 24.29 1.96 0.79 0.4 0.04 0.13
544 8.23 194 0.78125 -13.28125 -2.34375 -14.0625 6.09 1433 36.6685 26 80.6 26.63 4.31 0.16 0.385 0.78 0.07
549 5.49 194 -0.7812 -5.46875 0 -7.03125 4.35 1304 35.4255 26 80.6 19.2 0 0.58 0.225 0.755 0.08
555 5.88 194 4.6875 -13.28125 4.6875 -14.0625 5.655 1056 27.346 25.5 80.6 17.33 0 0.055 0.255 0.04 0.125
561 5.09 194 2.34375 -12.5 -0.78125 -13.28125 5.51 982 12.43 25.5 80.6 15.94 0 0.75 0.17 0.03 0.065
562 4.7 812 0 20.5 0.66

N0DIH
10-02-2008, 08:02 AM
EFILive needs an EFILive cable, or a B&B Autotap cable (you can get for $50-$100 on eBay, completely forgot about that one! Sorry, that is probably THE best deal going, get an old Autotap cable and get the latest v3.1 software).... They show up on ebay from time to time.

wOBD I think worked pretty well for me. Don't log too much, OBD2 is not near as slick as OBD1 is for datalogging, you have to be careful how much you load it down. My LT1 can pull well over 31 PIDs, 10x a second. OBD2 can't handle it....

N0DIH
10-02-2008, 08:12 AM
Yup, without a doubt is running rich. You have new injectors and FPR or just FPR? It is even, so it is fuel getting in or the MAF is reading wrong. Don't rush out to replace parts yet!

But if I had to guess, the FPR is leaking, yours is looking just like mine did. Only mine would peg to -18.0 rich (seemed to be the limit) all the time.

It probably runs good does it? :)

I'll look over it some more and see if I can guess something.... It ISN'T O2's, it ISN'T IAT or CTS, it ISN'T MAP.

Run another datalog in and add MAF in there too.




OK, I figured out how to paste the data here, but it loses all tab/spacing apparently. The 4-8th numbers are the fuel trims. It popped a P0175 during this log.

Car1 Polling Setup 10/1/2008 5:08:11 PM

Sec(s) CEL(%) Temp(F) Stft1 Ltft1 Stft2 Ltft2 FPr MAP(psi)RPM mph IAdvDeg)IAT(F) (gm/sec)TPS(%) 1-1(v) 1-2(v) O2 Sensor 2-1 2-2Volts
3 0.78 89.6 0 0 0 0 14.5 80.6 2.45 0 0.265 0.605 0.62
8 0.78 89.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 9.57 93 0 0 80.6 22.79 0 0.23 0.57
14 7.05 89.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 4.495 1246 0 23.5 80.6 15.16 0 0.945 0.59 1.005 0.595
19 4.7 89.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.075 902 0 22.5 80.6 14.3 0 0.905 0.58 0.99 0.585
25 4.7 89.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.075 887 0 23.5 80.6 17.13 0 0.87 0.56 0.955 0.585
31 5.49 89.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 6.525 777 1.243 25 80.6 18.33 0 0.85 0.55 0.94 0.56
36 5.88 91.4 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.8 916 4.972 25 80.6 40.74 5.49 0.85 0.545 0.92 0.575
42 14.5 91.4 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 7.54 1541 9.944 28.5 80.6 50.35 10.19 0.835 0.56 0.92 0.54
47 16.86 91.4 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.22 1575 18.645 28 80.6 19.83 0 0.86 0.535 0.92 0.58
53 6.27 95 0 -6.25 0 -4.6875 4.205 1347 18.645 29 80.6 25.89 2.74 0.825 0.52 0.92 0.59
59 7.05 96.8 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 4.495 1318 18.645 29 80.6 18.95 0 0.845 0.555 0.92 0.585
64 6.27 96.8 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.655 1010 13.0515 25 80.6 16.89 0 0.825 0.54 0.92 0.605
70 5.09 96.8 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 6.09 814 0 23 80.6 16.4 2.74 0.85 0.54 0.92 0.585
76 5.49 100.4 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.655 919 4.3505 25 80.6 40.57 5.49 0.825 0.565 0.925 0.58
81 17.25 102.2 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 8.845 1549 12.43 28.5 80.6 51.86 10.98 0.87 0.555 0.925 0.625
87 16.86 102.2 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 8.265 1560 21.131 29 80.6 44.58 9.8 0.88 0.56 0.935 0.635
92 7.05 105.8 0 -3.9062 0 -4.6875 4.35 1275 25.4815 28.5 80.6 19.16 0 0.895 0.565 0.955 0.605
98 6.27 107.6 0 -3.9062 0 -4.6875 4.64 1218 24.86 28.5 80.6 17.15 0 0.905 0.55 0.94 0.605
103 5.49 107.6 0 -3.9062 0 -4.6875 4.495 1200 24.2385 28.5 80.6 17.34 0 0.9 0.56 0.94 0.615
109 5.88 111.2 0 -3.9062 0 -4.6875 4.93 1170 22.9955 28.5 80.6 18.51 0 0.9 0.54 0.93 0.62
115 5.88 113 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.075 1119 21.7525 28.5 80.6 43.98 0.78 0.905 0.55 0.935 0.615
120 14.9 113 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 7.83 1554 23.617 28.5 80.6 22.87 0 0.92 0.565 0.935 0.645
126 6.27 116.6 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 4.64 1275 25.4815 28.5 80.6 24.62 1.56 0.92 0.585 0.945 0.63
131 8.62 118.4 0 -6.25 0 -6.25 5.8 1339 25.4815 30.5 80.6 18.45 0.39 0.92 0.565 0.925 0.63
137 7.05 118.4 -2.3437 -7.0312 -4.6875 -7.03125 5.51 1350 25.4815 28.5 78.8 28.02 3.52 0.09 0.465 0.91 0.305
143 9.01 118.4 -3.125 -10.156 -7.03125 -9.375 5.8 1358 26.103 31.5 78.8 26.39 2.74 0.125 0.165 0.105 0.23
148 9.41 122 1.5625 -10.156 -3.90625 -11.71875 6.235 1384 25.4815 25 78.8 28.4 4.31 0.205 0.13 0.1 0.215
154 9.01 123.8 -0.7812 -10.937 -2.34375 -13.28125 5.655 1360 26.103 31.5 78.8 27.25 2.74 0.82 0.16 0.85 0.205
159 8.62 123.8 0.78125 -10.937 -1.5625 -14.0625 7.25 1379 25.4815 30.5 78.8 37.5 7.05 0.735 0.115 0.12 0.225
165 10.98 127.4 -0.7812 -12.5 0 -15.625 6.09 1400 26.103 29.5 78.8 26.39 3.13 0.125 0.165 0.115 0.175
171 9.01 129.2 0.78125 -12.5 0 -15.625 5.8 1369 26.103 31 78.8 29.76 4.31 0.1 0.165 0.11 0.155
176 10.58 129.2 -1.5625 -12.5 0 -15.625 6.67 1402 25.4815 27.5 78.8 32.1 5.49 0.895 0.18 0.765 0.38
182 5.88 132.8 -4.6875 -7.8125 -14.0625 -7.8125 4.93 1105 22.374 28 78.8 16.27 0 0.31 0.3 0.865 0.15
187 6.27 134.6 -3.125 -7.8125 -6.25 -7.8125 4.93 1199 15.5375 28 78.8 26.02 2.74 0.775 0.425 0.835 0.15
193 9.01 134.6 -6.25 -3.9062 1.5625 -14.0625 5.945 1298 16.159 30 78.8 17.26 0 0.93 0.135 0.055 0.46
199 5.49 138.2 0.78125 -9.375 -5.46875 -8.59375 5.22 1050 14.2945 27.5 78.8 37.45 0 0.59 0.315 0.79 0.14
205 18.43 140 -7.0312 -8.5937 -8.59375 -7.8125 9.715 1599 12.43 28 78.8 101.39 24.7 0.755 0.23 0.895 0.205
210 44.7 140 -3.125 -7.0312 -3.125 -6.25 13.34 2534 28.589 16.5 75.2 170.65 48.23 0.13 0.35 0.44 0.245
216 58.43 143.6 -0.7812 -13.281 -11.71875 -15.625 4.785 2205 45.991 17.5 75.2 35.3 0 0.085 0.66 0.855 0.19
222 10.58 145.4 -0.7812 -14.062 -1.5625 -16.40625 5.075 1628 44.748 27 75.2 21.03 0 0.67 0.515 0.81 0.395
227 6.66 149 -3.9062 -9.375 -3.90625 -10.15625 4.205 1499 42.262 27 75.2 32.5 3.52 0.135 0.51 0.14 0.12
233 22.74 150.8 -3.9062 -10.937 -7.03125 -10.15625 11.31 1498 42.262 25 75.2 61.15 16.47 0.735 0.57 0.89 0.425
239 18.03 154.4 2.34375 -13.281 -1.5625 -17.1875 6.96 1628 46.6125 25.5 75.2 27.99 3.13 0.8 0.43 0.745 0.13
244 9.41 156.2 -2.3437 -13.281 0.78125 -17.96875 5.8 1573 45.3695 30 75.2 34.96 4.31 0.85 0.455 0.08 0.12
250 16.86 156.2 -2.3437 -14.062 -4.6875 -13.28125 9.425 1560 44.1265 24 75.2 51.58 11.37 0.71 0.47 0.075 0.1
255 15.68 159.8 0.78125 -14.062 0.78125 -17.96875 6.67 1619 45.991 26.5 75.2 21.75 0 0.815 0.525 0.095 0.095
261 6.27 161.6 -3.125 -10.937 -3.90625 -9.375 6.09 968 19.888 25.5 75.2 15.88 0 0.055 0.56 0.895 0.14
267 4.7 161.6 -4.6875 -8.5937 -6.25 -9.375 6.09 808 0 21 75.2 11.14 0 0.755 0.66 0.855 0.235
272 3.52 165.2 0 -6.25 -1.5625 -10.9375 6.09 663 0 23 75.2 15.39 0 0.22 0.655 0.195 0.105
278 4.31 167 -2.3437 -7.8125 -4.6875 -8.59375 6.38 678 0 22 75.2 10.74 0 0.125 0.735 0.855 0.1
284 3.52 167 -1.5625 -9.375 -2.34375 -10.9375 6.38 626 0 24.5 75.2 10.6 0 0.17 0.735 0.745 0.07
289 3.52 167 -3.125 -14.062 -2.34375 -14.84375 8.12 1038 0 22.5 75.2 74.59 16.86 0.915 0.75 0.735 0.205
295 27.05 170.6 1.5625 -14.062 0 -15.625 11.02 2039 20.5095 23 75.2 85.51 22.35 0.095 0.72 0.59 0.21
301 29.01 170.6 0 -13.281 1.5625 -15.625 11.165 2093 32.9395 17 75.2 80.94 22.35 0.845 0.66 0.64 0.485
306 22.35 172.4 -5.4687 -14.062 -1.5625 -16.40625 9.57 1871 41.019 25.5 75.2 32 0 0.85 0.63 0.785 0.155
312 20.39 172.4 8.59375 -9.375 2.34375 -10.15625 4.64 1521 43.505 25 75.2 17.11 0 0.03 0.67 0.745 0.12
318 4.7 176 -6.25 -7.03125 -0.78125 -8.59375 3.77 1311 39.1545 26 75.2 12.62 0 0.81 0.18 0.745 0.53
323 4.31 177.8 -6.25 -10.9375 -9.375 -9.375 5.075 875 25.4815 25.5 75.2 11.9 0 0.06 0.195 0.845 0.43
329 3.92 177.8 -3.125 -9.375 -6.25 -10.15625 6.09 707 8.701 75.2 10.62 0 0.065 0.145 0.28 0.11
334 3.52 181.4 -2.3437 -10.15625 -0.78125 -10.9375 6.235 623 0 23.5 75.2 10.52 0 0.835 0.165 0.085 0.08
340 3.52 183.2 0 -9.375 -1.5625 -10.9375 5.945 671 0 22.5 75.2 10.6 0 0.84 0.165 0.43 0.075
346 3.52 183.2 -0.7812 -9.375 -0.78125 -10.9375 5.945 672 0 22.5 75.2 10.57 0 0.14 0.19 0.72 0.07
351 3.52 186.8 0 -10.15625 -1.5625 -11.71875 6.235 629 0 23 75.2 10.51 0 0.705 0.205 0.815 0.065
357 3.52 186.8 1.5625 -6.25 0.78125 -11.71875 6.235 623 0 23.5 75.2 45.64 8.23 0.73 0.215 0.48 0.145
363 17.64 188.6 2.34375 -16.40625 0 -17.96875 9.86 1839 11.8085 25.5 75.2 65.02 15.68 0.785 0.495 0.82 0.115
368 23.13 188.6 0.78125 -15.625 1.5625 -17.96875 10.295 1828 24.2385 26 75.2 72.32 18.43 0.85 0.515 0.565 0.205
374 24.31 188.6 0.78125 -14.84375 0.78125 -17.96875 10.15 1958 33.561 25 75.2 73.95 19.21 0.105 0.51 0.725 0.115
380 24.7 188.6 1.5625 -14.84375 0 -17.1875 10.295 1958 41.019 25 75.2 60.68 16.86 0.73 0.435 0.38 0.17
385 20.39 188.6 -0.7812 -14.84375 0.78125 -17.1875 9.715 1593 45.3695 21 75.2 54.52 13.72 0.17 0.595 0.115 0.49
391 11.37 192.2 0 -14.0625 -1.5625 -17.1875 7.395 1642 46.6125 29.5 75.2 38.86 8.23 0.51 0.73 0.07 0.095
397 12.94 194 0 -14.0625 -0.78125 -17.1875 6.38 1662 47.234 28.5 75.2 32.71 5.88 0.255 0.7 0.39 0.085
402 10.58 194 -0.7812 -14.0625 0 -17.1875 6.235 1624 46.6125 29.5 75.2 33.65 6.27 0.13 0.69 0.75 0.065
408 10.98 197.6 -1.5625 -14.0625 -0.78125 -17.1875 6.38 1611 45.991 29.5 75.2 33.76 6.27 0.595 0.68 0.82 0.065
413 12.15 197.6 0.78125 -15.625 -0.78125 -17.96875 7.975 1605 45.991 28 73.4 41.68 9.01 0.79 0.665 0.825 0.075
419 14.11 197.6 4.6875 -15.625 -0.78125 -17.96875 7.685 1653 47.234 27.5 73.4 33.27 5.49 0.81 0.655 0.135 0.085
425 10.58 197.6 0.78125 -14.84375 0 -17.1875 5.655 1625 46.6125 30 73.4 30.56 5.49 0.745 0.66 0.77 0.075
431 9.8 197.6 -2.3437 -14.84375 0 -17.1875 6.09 1575 45.3695 30 73.4 34.6 7.05 0.735 0.655 0.105 0.08
436 11.76 194 11.7187 -7.03125 5.46875 -8.59375 5.655 1579 44.748 28.5 73.4 15.23 0 0.86 0.525 0.805 0.07
442 5.09 194 -0.7812 -5.46875 0 -7.8125 3.625 1458 42.262 26 73.4 15.13 0 0.825 0.295 0.755 0.065
447 4.7 194 -1.5625 -5.46875 0.78125 -7.8125 3.77 1364 39.1545 26 73.4 13.69 0 0.605 0.255 0.07 0.08
453 3.92 194 -10.937 -11.71875 -10.9375 -11.71875 5.075 908 26.103 25.5 73.4 11.84 0 0.075 0.265 0.795 0.055
459 3.92 194 -2.3437 -13.28125 -2.34375 -12.5 5.365 786 8.701 25 73.4 10.58 0 0.065 0.185 0.79 0.08
465 3.52 194 0.78125 -11.71875 -1.5625 -12.5 5.945 684 0 22 75.2 10.59 0 0.065 0.2 0.685 0.05
470 3.52 194 0 -10.9375 -1.5625 -11.71875 6.235 629 0 22.5 75.2 10.57 0 0.095 0.2 0.805 0.055
476 3.13 194 0.78125 -10.9375 0.78125 -11.71875 6.235 635 0 23 75.2 10.49 0 0.14 0.215 0.835 0.065
481 3.52 194 3.125 -10.9375 2.34375 -11.71875 5.945 681 0 22 75.2 10.58 0 0.83 0.225 0.475 0.06
487 3.52 194 -0.7812 -10.9375 0.78125 -11.71875 5.8 684 0 22 75.2 10.44 0 0.81 0.23 0.23 0.065
493 4.31 194 -3.125 -7.03125 -3.125 -7.03125 4.785 1035 0 20 75.2 10.71 0 0.73 0.25 0.875 0.06
498 3.52 194 -0.7812 -7.03125 -3.125 -7.03125 4.64 844 0 21 75.2 10.53 0 0.57 0.24 0.05 0.055
504 3.52 194 -3.125 -7.8125 -2.34375 -9.375 4.64 858 0 21 75.2 10.66 0 0.27 0.24 0.57 0.065
509 3.52 194 -0.7812 -10.9375 -3.90625 -10.9375 5.22 749 0 21 75.2 10.64 0 0.065 0.25 0.775 0.05
515 3.52 194 -2.3437 -13.28125 -1.5625 -13.28125 4.64 852 0 21 78.8 63.94 12.94 0.775 0.25 0.73 0.145
521 22.74 194 2.34375 -15.625 0 -17.1875 10.295 1946 15.5375 26 80.6 69.77 17.64 0.68 0.43 0.745 0.095
527 22.35 194 2.34375 -14.84375 0 -17.1875 10.295 1836 27.346 23.5 80.6 60.35 17.64 0.1 0.43 0.11 0.165
532 21.56 194 3.125 -14.0625 0 -16.40625 9.135 1823 34.804 25.5 80.6 36.19 8.23 0.545 0.445 0.86 0.095
538 6.66 192.2 0.78125 -12.5 10.9375 -14.84375 4.785 1379 37.9115 18.5 80.6 24.29 1.96 0.79 0.4 0.04 0.13
544 8.23 194 0.78125 -13.28125 -2.34375 -14.0625 6.09 1433 36.6685 26 80.6 26.63 4.31 0.16 0.385 0.78 0.07
549 5.49 194 -0.7812 -5.46875 0 -7.03125 4.35 1304 35.4255 26 80.6 19.2 0 0.58 0.225 0.755 0.08
555 5.88 194 4.6875 -13.28125 4.6875 -14.0625 5.655 1056 27.346 25.5 80.6 17.33 0 0.055 0.255 0.04 0.125
561 5.09 194 2.34375 -12.5 -0.78125 -13.28125 5.51 982 12.43 25.5 80.6 15.94 0 0.75 0.17 0.03 0.065
562 4.7 812 0 20.5 0.66

N0DIH
10-02-2008, 08:22 AM
Looking at O2's, they look ok too, don't replace. They are showing crosscounts as they should be....

The P0172/P0175 typically comes after a moderate acceleration, it will not be able to cross the 0.45v range for 2 min and show the fault.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t142/mompower/Tom/Truck/Lou/LouO2.jpg

skills4lou
10-02-2008, 05:47 PM
I have the bosch injectors from five0motorsports, stock size. They are about 2 yrs old. I also have a new FPR in it, installed this last spring. I went with the one from AZone, so maybe that's the issue. I does run good, the only problem with the actual running is the high idle. I'll be replacing the IAC hopefully this weekend to fix that problem. I just have the find the best deal on an AC Delco IAC valve.
I did another log this morning on my way to work. I'll pare it down to just fuel trims, MAF, and O2 sensors. When I finish I'll post it up here.

Yup, without a doubt is running rich. You have new injectors and FPR or just FPR? It is even, so it is fuel getting in or the MAF is reading wrong. Don't rush out to replace parts yet!

But if I had to guess, the FPR is leaking, yours is looking just like mine did. Only mine would peg to -18.0 rich (seemed to be the limit) all the time.

It probably runs good does it? :)

I'll look over it some more and see if I can guess something.... It ISN'T O2's, it ISN'T IAT or CTS, it ISN'T MAP.

Run another datalog in and add MAF in there too.

skills4lou
10-02-2008, 06:13 PM
Alright let's try this:
Second(s) STFT1 LTFT1 STFT2 LTFT2 MAP(psi) RPM Ignition Advance(Deg) IAT(F) Air Flow(gm/sec) O2 1-1 (v) O2 1-2(v) O2 1-5(v) O2 1-6(v)
3 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.5 59.0 2.5 0.4 0.4 0.3
7 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.5 0.0 0.0 59.0 2.5 0.4 0.4 0.3 0.3
10 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.5 0.0 0.0 59.0 2.5 0.4 0.4 0.3 0.3
13 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.5 0.0 0.0 59.0 2.5 0.4 0.4 0.3 0.3
17 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.5 0.0 0.0 9.2 0.4 0.4 0.3 0.4
23 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.2 1514.0 24.5 59.0 17.8 0.8 0.7 1.1 0.5
28 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.6 972.0 22.0 59.0 15.6 0.8 0.7 0.9 0.6
34 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 6.1 857.0 25.0 59.0 20.2 0.8 0.7 1.0 0.6
39 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.7 975.0 25.0 59.0 19.9 0.8 0.7 1.0 0.7
45 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 6.1 1044.0 25.0 59.0 47.6 0.8 0.6 1.0 0.6
50 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.4 1308.0 28.5 59.0 19.8 0.9 0.6 1.0 0.6
56 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.7 1001.0 25.0 59.0 19.6 0.9 0.6 1.0 0.6
61 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 7.3 1397.0 28.5 59.0 42.9 0.9 0.7 1.0 0.7
67 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 7.1 1498.0 29.0 57.2 43.3 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.6
73 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 6.7 1413.0 29.0 57.2 20.4 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
78 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.8 1188.0 29.5 57.2 20.1 1.0 0.6 1.0 0.7
84 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.9 1155.0 29.5 57.2 20.4 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
89 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.1 1152.0 29.5 57.2 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
95 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.9 1157.0 29.0 57.2 20.0 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.6
100 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.9 1163.0 29.0 57.2 19.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
106 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.5 1060.0 28.5 57.2 18.9 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
111 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 7.7 1498.0 28.5 57.2 55.3 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
117 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 8.0 1725.0 29.0 57.2 45.8 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
122 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 6.8 1456.0 29.5 57.2 24.0 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
128 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.6 1272.0 29.0 57.2 20.1 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
134 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.8 1223.0 29.0 57.2 19.1 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
139 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.7 1002.0 25.0 57.2 18.4 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
145 -3.9 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 7.8 1215.0 22.5 57.2 61.1 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
150 -17.1 -6.3 -18.0 -6.3 9.4 1821.0 26.0 57.2 71.4 0.8 0.3 0.8 0.4
156 -16.4 -6.3 -17.2 -6.3 9.3 1852.0 27.0 57.2 64.9 0.6 0.3 0.1 0.3
161 -14.0 -6.3 -19.5 -6.3 6.4 1523.0 28.0 57.2 27.0 0.1 0.5 0.1 0.2
167 -14.0 -6.3 -15.6 -6.3 5.7 1351.0 30.5 57.2 19.7 0.9 0.3 0.1 0.2
173 -10.1 -6.3 -10.2 -6.3 4.6 1255.0 28.5 57.2 19.3 0.4 0.3 0.5 0.2
178 -6.3 -6.3 -10.9 -6.3 5.1 1149.0 28.5 57.2 18.6 0.8 0.2 0.1 0.2
184 3.1 -7.0 -4.7 -7.8 5.4 1077.0 28.5 57.2 18.3 0.1 0.2 0.9 0.4
189 -4.6 -7.0 -3.9 -8.6 5.8 979.0 25.0 57.2 16.3 0.9 0.5 0.1 0.2
195 -2.3 -8.6 -4.7 -9.4 6.1 828.0 22.0 57.2 13.6 0.9 0.3 0.1 0.2
200 -5.5 -9.4 -4.7 -8.6 4.4 1060.0 21.5 57.2 27.3 1.0 0.5 0.3 0.2
206 -5.5 -7.8 -10.9 -7.8 8.7 1632.0 27.0 57.2 56.4 0.9 0.5 0.9 0.2
212 -2.3 -10.9 -6.3 -10.9 9.3 1715.0 28.5 57.2 58.9 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.2
217 -0.8 -12.5 -4.7 -13.3 8.8 1787.0 28.0 57.2 56.3 0.9 0.3 0.1 0.3
223 -10.9 -7.0 -6.3 -7.0 7.8 1547.0 28.5 57.2 19.5 0.9 0.4 0.7 0.5
228 -3.1 -9.4 -3.9 -9.4 5.4 1312.0 28.0 57.2 27.2 0.9 0.3 0.6 0.4
234 -2.3 -10.2 -2.3 -11.7 6.2 1337.0 30.0 57.2 33.2 0.1 0.4 0.6 0.3
239 0.0 -11.7 -1.6 -12.5 6.7 1414.0 29.0 57.2 34.3 0.8 0.6 0.1 0.2
245 -3.9 -12.5 -3.1 -14.1 6.8 1472.0 27.5 57.2 23.1 0.9 0.4 0.1 0.2
250 1.6 -14.8 1.6 -15.6 4.6 1319.0 28.0 57.2 23.1 0.1 0.4 0.6 0.1
256 2.3 -14.1 1.6 -14.8 5.2 1356.0 31.0 57.2 23.2 0.1 0.3 0.7 0.1
261 0.8 -12.5 0.8 -14.8 5.2 1354.0 30.5 57.2 19.3 0.8 0.2 0.6 0.1
267 0.8 -12.5 2.3 -14.1 4.6 1300.0 27.5 57.2 19.3 0.4 0.2 0.5 0.1
272 -5.5 -7.8 -6.3 -7.8 4.1 1274.0 30.0 57.2 15.6 0.9 0.2 0.1 0.2
278 -1.6 -8.6 -1.6 -10.2 3.9 1254.0 27.5 57.2 15.7 0.1 0.5 0.1 0.1
283 2.3 -11.7 3.1 -13.3 5.4 1343.0 27.0 57.2 28.1 0.7 0.2 0.1 0.6
289 0.0 -12.5 -2.3 -14.8 8.3 1530.0 26.5 57.2 46.7 0.9 0.5 0.6 0.2
294 0.8 -13.3 -2.3 -15.6 7.7 1547.0 27.0 57.2 40.1 0.1 0.7 0.8 0.1
300 0.8 -12.5 -5.5 -15.6 7.4 1545.0 26.0 57.2 30.4 0.5 0.6 0.1 0.5
307 -5.5 -10.2 -0.8 -10.9 4.9 1393.0 29.5 57.2 16.0 0.9 0.4 0.9 0.3
313 2.3 -13.3 -0.8 -15.6 7.4 1491.0 26.5 57.2 23.4 0.2 0.7 0.1 0.1
318 -1.6 -11.7 0.8 -14.1 4.8 1319.0 26.5 57.2 36.4 0.7 0.3 0.8 0.6
324 0.0 -13.3 -2.3 -14.8 7.4 1514.0 26.5 57.2 42.6 0.1 0.7 0.1 0.2
329 2.3 -12.5 3.1 -15.6 6.4 1463.0 27.0 57.2 24.3 0.1 0.4 0.7 0.1
335 0.8 -12.5 0.8 -14.8 5.2 1385.0 29.0 57.2 26.6 0.1 0.3 0.6 0.1
340 -3.9 -10.2 1.6 -14.1 5.4 1373.0 26.0 57.2 15.2 0.2 0.3 0.0 0.1
346 -7.8 -7.8 -9.4 -7.8 4.5 1127.0 26.0 57.2 14.4 0.9 0.5 0.8 0.1
351 0.0 -14.1 -2.3 -16.4 7.4 1306.0 25.5 57.2 56.7 0.6 0.7 0.1 0.1
357 -0.8 -14.1 -1.6 -16.4 9.4 1755.0 25.0 57.2 61.6 0.8 0.5 0.1 0.1
362 -0.8 -14.1 0.0 -16.4 9.7 1725.0 26.0 57.2 54.8 0.4 0.7 0.8 0.1
368 6.3 -11.7 -2.3 -14.1 8.0 1677.0 26.0 57.2 20.7 0.9 0.7 0.5 0.1
373 -1.6 -11.7 0.8 -12.5 4.1 1296.0 26.0 57.2 15.4 0.2 0.7 0.8 0.1
379 0.8 -11.7 -0.8 -12.5 4.1 1247.0 26.0 57.2 14.7 0.1 0.4 0.8 0.1
384 0.0 -8.6 0.0 -12.5 4.4 1146.0 26.0 57.2 14.7 0.8 0.3 0.6 0.1
390 -3.9 -7.0 -2.3 -10.9 4.5 1117.0 26.0 57.2 38.2 0.8 0.3 0.1 0.3
396 0.8 -14.1 2.3 -17.2 9.6 1679.0 25.0 57.2 58.0 0.1 0.6 0.1 0.2
401 0.8 -14.1 0.8 -17.2 9.3 1768.0 25.5 57.2 57.6 0.3 0.6 0.8 0.1
406 1.6 -14.1 0.0 -17.2 8.7 1770.0 26.5 57.2 49.0 0.7 0.5 0.1 0.1
412 0.0 -11.7 0.0 -14.8 6.8 1673.0 28.5 57.2 33.8 0.1 0.7 0.8 0.1
417 -3.9 -11.7 -0.8 -14.8 6.2 1634.0 26.0 57.2 36.9 0.1 0.8 0.1 0.1
423 0.8 -13.3 0.0 -15.6 7.0 1498.0 27.0 57.2 34.0 0.2 0.8 0.8 0.1
429 0.0 -12.5 2.3 -14.8 5.2 1491.0 29.5 57.2 23.8 0.9 0.8 0.5 0.1
434 -0.8 -13.3 -1.6 -14.8 5.7 1456.0 29.5 57.2 26.6 0.7 0.7 0.2 0.1
440 -0.8 -13.3 0.0 -14.8 5.8 1447.0 29.0 57.2 28.4 0.1 0.7 0.7 0.1
445 0.0 -14.1 -1.6 -15.6 7.3 1451.0 27.0 57.2 36.0 0.4 0.5 0.7 0.1
451 0.0 -14.1 0.0 -15.6 7.4 1480.0 27.0 57.2 36.5 0.7 0.5 0.8 0.1
456 0.0 -12.5 2.3 -14.8 6.2 1506.0 28.0 57.2 28.1 0.7 0.3 0.8 0.1
462 -2.3 -12.5 0.0 -14.8 5.7 1485.0 29.5 57.2 26.6 0.8 0.4 0.1 0.1
467 -1.6 -12.5 -0.8 -14.8 5.7 1477.0 29.5 57.2 17.5 0.8 0.5 0.7 0.1
473 0.8 -10.9 3.1 -11.7 4.1 1455.0 26.0 57.2 16.9 0.9 0.3 0.5 0.1
478 0.8 -10.2 2.3 -10.9 4.1 1387.0 26.0 57.2 16.0 0.3 0.2 0.4 0.1
484 -7.0 -10.2 -7.8 -11.7 4.4 1166.0 26.0 57.2 15.4 0.7 0.2 0.7 0.1
490 -5.5 -9.4 -2.3 -11.7 5.2 955.0 25.5 57.2 14.3 0.1 0.2 0.8 0.1
495 -3.1 -10.2 -3.9 -11.7 5.8 822.0 25.0 57.2 12.7 0.8 0.2 0.2 0.1
501 -0.8 -14.8 -2.3 -17.2 8.8 1364.0 23.5 57.2 54.9 0.1 0.2 0.9 0.1
506 0.8 -14.8 0.8 -16.4 9.0 1753.0 25.5 57.2 56.3 0.2 0.2 0.9 0.1
512 0.8 -14.8 -0.8 -16.4 9.1 1755.0 25.5 57.2 57.4 0.8 0.4 0.2 0.1
518 1.6 -14.8 -1.6 -16.4 9.3 1725.0 25.0 57.2 42.8 0.1 0.6 0.1 0.2
523 4.7 -11.7 10.2 -10.9 4.5 1321.0 26.0 59.0 33.9 0.1 0.2 0.0 0.7
529 -0.8 -14.1 -3.9 -16.4 7.7 1539.0 27.0 59.0 46.3 0.8 0.7 0.1 0.1
534 -1.6 -13.3 0.0 -15.6 7.4 1611.0 26.5 59.0 36.3 0.1 0.7 0.8 0.1
540 2.3 -9.4 9.4 -10.9 4.6 1491.0 29.5 59.0 18.3 0.9 0.6 0.1 0.1
545 -3.9 -12.5 -7.0 -15.6 5.4 1496.0 29.5 59.0 46.9 0.8 0.7 0.1 0.1
547 1708.0 26.0 0.1


I also figured out how to put this in an Excel spreadsheet, so I you want the file I can email it to you. Much easier to read that way! Thanks again for your time!!!

nufnuffz28
10-04-2008, 12:48 PM
anyone know how to fix the stock CD players?

N0DIH
10-04-2008, 01:50 PM
No idea, try the interiors forum...


anyone know how to fix the stock CD players?

N0DIH
10-04-2008, 01:54 PM
IAC can't make it rich/lean at cruise. Don't waste $ there. The issue is something common on fuel. The autozone and NAPA FPR's are identical, same vendor and all. I bought both and returned the NAPA one, why pay double for the same identical part?

Still gotta be in the fueling somehow. Look at the MAF, is the sensor wire coated with junk? Air filter plugged up? Those are the issues. If an air leak AFTER the MAF, then it would run lean, not rich, so it is essentially getting to LITTLE air. IAC does have a small effect here, but not the magnitude a 454 would ever see.


Alright let's try this:
Second(s) STFT1 LTFT1 STFT2 LTFT2 MAP(psi) RPM Ignition Advance(Deg) IAT(F) Air Flow(gm/sec) O2 1-1 (v) O2 1-2(v) O2 1-5(v) O2 1-6(v)
3 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.5 59.0 2.5 0.4 0.4 0.3
7 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.5 0.0 0.0 59.0 2.5 0.4 0.4 0.3 0.3
10 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.5 0.0 0.0 59.0 2.5 0.4 0.4 0.3 0.3
13 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.5 0.0 0.0 59.0 2.5 0.4 0.4 0.3 0.3
17 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 14.5 0.0 0.0 9.2 0.4 0.4 0.3 0.4
23 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.2 1514.0 24.5 59.0 17.8 0.8 0.7 1.1 0.5
28 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.6 972.0 22.0 59.0 15.6 0.8 0.7 0.9 0.6
34 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 6.1 857.0 25.0 59.0 20.2 0.8 0.7 1.0 0.6
39 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.7 975.0 25.0 59.0 19.9 0.8 0.7 1.0 0.7
45 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 6.1 1044.0 25.0 59.0 47.6 0.8 0.6 1.0 0.6
50 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.4 1308.0 28.5 59.0 19.8 0.9 0.6 1.0 0.6
56 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.7 1001.0 25.0 59.0 19.6 0.9 0.6 1.0 0.6
61 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 7.3 1397.0 28.5 59.0 42.9 0.9 0.7 1.0 0.7
67 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 7.1 1498.0 29.0 57.2 43.3 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.6
73 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 6.7 1413.0 29.0 57.2 20.4 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
78 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.8 1188.0 29.5 57.2 20.1 1.0 0.6 1.0 0.7
84 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.9 1155.0 29.5 57.2 20.4 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
89 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.1 1152.0 29.5 57.2 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
95 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.9 1157.0 29.0 57.2 20.0 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.6
100 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.9 1163.0 29.0 57.2 19.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
106 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.5 1060.0 28.5 57.2 18.9 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
111 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 7.7 1498.0 28.5 57.2 55.3 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
117 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 8.0 1725.0 29.0 57.2 45.8 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
122 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 6.8 1456.0 29.5 57.2 24.0 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
128 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.6 1272.0 29.0 57.2 20.1 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
134 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 4.8 1223.0 29.0 57.2 19.1 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
139 0.0 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 5.7 1002.0 25.0 57.2 18.4 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
145 -3.9 -6.3 0.0 -6.3 7.8 1215.0 22.5 57.2 61.1 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.7
150 -17.1 -6.3 -18.0 -6.3 9.4 1821.0 26.0 57.2 71.4 0.8 0.3 0.8 0.4
156 -16.4 -6.3 -17.2 -6.3 9.3 1852.0 27.0 57.2 64.9 0.6 0.3 0.1 0.3
161 -14.0 -6.3 -19.5 -6.3 6.4 1523.0 28.0 57.2 27.0 0.1 0.5 0.1 0.2
167 -14.0 -6.3 -15.6 -6.3 5.7 1351.0 30.5 57.2 19.7 0.9 0.3 0.1 0.2
173 -10.1 -6.3 -10.2 -6.3 4.6 1255.0 28.5 57.2 19.3 0.4 0.3 0.5 0.2
178 -6.3 -6.3 -10.9 -6.3 5.1 1149.0 28.5 57.2 18.6 0.8 0.2 0.1 0.2
184 3.1 -7.0 -4.7 -7.8 5.4 1077.0 28.5 57.2 18.3 0.1 0.2 0.9 0.4
189 -4.6 -7.0 -3.9 -8.6 5.8 979.0 25.0 57.2 16.3 0.9 0.5 0.1 0.2
195 -2.3 -8.6 -4.7 -9.4 6.1 828.0 22.0 57.2 13.6 0.9 0.3 0.1 0.2
200 -5.5 -9.4 -4.7 -8.6 4.4 1060.0 21.5 57.2 27.3 1.0 0.5 0.3 0.2
206 -5.5 -7.8 -10.9 -7.8 8.7 1632.0 27.0 57.2 56.4 0.9 0.5 0.9 0.2
212 -2.3 -10.9 -6.3 -10.9 9.3 1715.0 28.5 57.2 58.9 0.1 0.2 0.3 0.2
217 -0.8 -12.5 -4.7 -13.3 8.8 1787.0 28.0 57.2 56.3 0.9 0.3 0.1 0.3
223 -10.9 -7.0 -6.3 -7.0 7.8 1547.0 28.5 57.2 19.5 0.9 0.4 0.7 0.5
228 -3.1 -9.4 -3.9 -9.4 5.4 1312.0 28.0 57.2 27.2 0.9 0.3 0.6 0.4
234 -2.3 -10.2 -2.3 -11.7 6.2 1337.0 30.0 57.2 33.2 0.1 0.4 0.6 0.3
239 0.0 -11.7 -1.6 -12.5 6.7 1414.0 29.0 57.2 34.3 0.8 0.6 0.1 0.2
245 -3.9 -12.5 -3.1 -14.1 6.8 1472.0 27.5 57.2 23.1 0.9 0.4 0.1 0.2
250 1.6 -14.8 1.6 -15.6 4.6 1319.0 28.0 57.2 23.1 0.1 0.4 0.6 0.1
256 2.3 -14.1 1.6 -14.8 5.2 1356.0 31.0 57.2 23.2 0.1 0.3 0.7 0.1
261 0.8 -12.5 0.8 -14.8 5.2 1354.0 30.5 57.2 19.3 0.8 0.2 0.6 0.1
267 0.8 -12.5 2.3 -14.1 4.6 1300.0 27.5 57.2 19.3 0.4 0.2 0.5 0.1
272 -5.5 -7.8 -6.3 -7.8 4.1 1274.0 30.0 57.2 15.6 0.9 0.2 0.1 0.2
278 -1.6 -8.6 -1.6 -10.2 3.9 1254.0 27.5 57.2 15.7 0.1 0.5 0.1 0.1
283 2.3 -11.7 3.1 -13.3 5.4 1343.0 27.0 57.2 28.1 0.7 0.2 0.1 0.6
289 0.0 -12.5 -2.3 -14.8 8.3 1530.0 26.5 57.2 46.7 0.9 0.5 0.6 0.2
294 0.8 -13.3 -2.3 -15.6 7.7 1547.0 27.0 57.2 40.1 0.1 0.7 0.8 0.1
300 0.8 -12.5 -5.5 -15.6 7.4 1545.0 26.0 57.2 30.4 0.5 0.6 0.1 0.5
307 -5.5 -10.2 -0.8 -10.9 4.9 1393.0 29.5 57.2 16.0 0.9 0.4 0.9 0.3
313 2.3 -13.3 -0.8 -15.6 7.4 1491.0 26.5 57.2 23.4 0.2 0.7 0.1 0.1
318 -1.6 -11.7 0.8 -14.1 4.8 1319.0 26.5 57.2 36.4 0.7 0.3 0.8 0.6
324 0.0 -13.3 -2.3 -14.8 7.4 1514.0 26.5 57.2 42.6 0.1 0.7 0.1 0.2
329 2.3 -12.5 3.1 -15.6 6.4 1463.0 27.0 57.2 24.3 0.1 0.4 0.7 0.1
335 0.8 -12.5 0.8 -14.8 5.2 1385.0 29.0 57.2 26.6 0.1 0.3 0.6 0.1
340 -3.9 -10.2 1.6 -14.1 5.4 1373.0 26.0 57.2 15.2 0.2 0.3 0.0 0.1
346 -7.8 -7.8 -9.4 -7.8 4.5 1127.0 26.0 57.2 14.4 0.9 0.5 0.8 0.1
351 0.0 -14.1 -2.3 -16.4 7.4 1306.0 25.5 57.2 56.7 0.6 0.7 0.1 0.1
357 -0.8 -14.1 -1.6 -16.4 9.4 1755.0 25.0 57.2 61.6 0.8 0.5 0.1 0.1
362 -0.8 -14.1 0.0 -16.4 9.7 1725.0 26.0 57.2 54.8 0.4 0.7 0.8 0.1
368 6.3 -11.7 -2.3 -14.1 8.0 1677.0 26.0 57.2 20.7 0.9 0.7 0.5 0.1
373 -1.6 -11.7 0.8 -12.5 4.1 1296.0 26.0 57.2 15.4 0.2 0.7 0.8 0.1
379 0.8 -11.7 -0.8 -12.5 4.1 1247.0 26.0 57.2 14.7 0.1 0.4 0.8 0.1
384 0.0 -8.6 0.0 -12.5 4.4 1146.0 26.0 57.2 14.7 0.8 0.3 0.6 0.1
390 -3.9 -7.0 -2.3 -10.9 4.5 1117.0 26.0 57.2 38.2 0.8 0.3 0.1 0.3
396 0.8 -14.1 2.3 -17.2 9.6 1679.0 25.0 57.2 58.0 0.1 0.6 0.1 0.2
401 0.8 -14.1 0.8 -17.2 9.3 1768.0 25.5 57.2 57.6 0.3 0.6 0.8 0.1
406 1.6 -14.1 0.0 -17.2 8.7 1770.0 26.5 57.2 49.0 0.7 0.5 0.1 0.1
412 0.0 -11.7 0.0 -14.8 6.8 1673.0 28.5 57.2 33.8 0.1 0.7 0.8 0.1
417 -3.9 -11.7 -0.8 -14.8 6.2 1634.0 26.0 57.2 36.9 0.1 0.8 0.1 0.1
423 0.8 -13.3 0.0 -15.6 7.0 1498.0 27.0 57.2 34.0 0.2 0.8 0.8 0.1
429 0.0 -12.5 2.3 -14.8 5.2 1491.0 29.5 57.2 23.8 0.9 0.8 0.5 0.1
434 -0.8 -13.3 -1.6 -14.8 5.7 1456.0 29.5 57.2 26.6 0.7 0.7 0.2 0.1
440 -0.8 -13.3 0.0 -14.8 5.8 1447.0 29.0 57.2 28.4 0.1 0.7 0.7 0.1
445 0.0 -14.1 -1.6 -15.6 7.3 1451.0 27.0 57.2 36.0 0.4 0.5 0.7 0.1
451 0.0 -14.1 0.0 -15.6 7.4 1480.0 27.0 57.2 36.5 0.7 0.5 0.8 0.1
456 0.0 -12.5 2.3 -14.8 6.2 1506.0 28.0 57.2 28.1 0.7 0.3 0.8 0.1
462 -2.3 -12.5 0.0 -14.8 5.7 1485.0 29.5 57.2 26.6 0.8 0.4 0.1 0.1
467 -1.6 -12.5 -0.8 -14.8 5.7 1477.0 29.5 57.2 17.5 0.8 0.5 0.7 0.1
473 0.8 -10.9 3.1 -11.7 4.1 1455.0 26.0 57.2 16.9 0.9 0.3 0.5 0.1
478 0.8 -10.2 2.3 -10.9 4.1 1387.0 26.0 57.2 16.0 0.3 0.2 0.4 0.1
484 -7.0 -10.2 -7.8 -11.7 4.4 1166.0 26.0 57.2 15.4 0.7 0.2 0.7 0.1
490 -5.5 -9.4 -2.3 -11.7 5.2 955.0 25.5 57.2 14.3 0.1 0.2 0.8 0.1
495 -3.1 -10.2 -3.9 -11.7 5.8 822.0 25.0 57.2 12.7 0.8 0.2 0.2 0.1
501 -0.8 -14.8 -2.3 -17.2 8.8 1364.0 23.5 57.2 54.9 0.1 0.2 0.9 0.1
506 0.8 -14.8 0.8 -16.4 9.0 1753.0 25.5 57.2 56.3 0.2 0.2 0.9 0.1
512 0.8 -14.8 -0.8 -16.4 9.1 1755.0 25.5 57.2 57.4 0.8 0.4 0.2 0.1
518 1.6 -14.8 -1.6 -16.4 9.3 1725.0 25.0 57.2 42.8 0.1 0.6 0.1 0.2
523 4.7 -11.7 10.2 -10.9 4.5 1321.0 26.0 59.0 33.9 0.1 0.2 0.0 0.7
529 -0.8 -14.1 -3.9 -16.4 7.7 1539.0 27.0 59.0 46.3 0.8 0.7 0.1 0.1
534 -1.6 -13.3 0.0 -15.6 7.4 1611.0 26.5 59.0 36.3 0.1 0.7 0.8 0.1
540 2.3 -9.4 9.4 -10.9 4.6 1491.0 29.5 59.0 18.3 0.9 0.6 0.1 0.1
545 -3.9 -12.5 -7.0 -15.6 5.4 1496.0 29.5 59.0 46.9 0.8 0.7 0.1 0.1
547 1708.0 26.0 0.1


I also figured out how to put this in an Excel spreadsheet, so I you want the file I can email it to you. Much easier to read that way! Thanks again for your time!!!

skills4lou
10-04-2008, 07:57 PM
I'll yank the MAF out tomorrow and see. I haven't put a new air filter in, so I don't actually know how long that one's been in. It's not visually dirty/plugged up, and the little gauge that's between the filter and MAF doesn't show it being plugged. Still, I'll buy a new filter and see what happens.
Is it possible that there is something other than the FPR or injectors leaking fuel into the manifold? I don't see anything else that could do it. Maybe the little fuel vapor canister doodad (how's that for technical!)?
If I'm reading the numbers correct, both banks are running rich, with bank 2 being just a bit worse. Is that correct?

N0DIH
10-04-2008, 08:16 PM
Just take out the air filter first, see, it won't hurt if you don't do it long and avoid driving down the dirty dusty roads.

Yup, the Canister Purge line can cause problems. Check the air filter on (98-00 are a little different than 96-97) the canister near the drivers side where the second battery would be (or box like I put on mine from my 96 burb) You can take off the cap there and it won't let much through (might get a canister code, but you can clear with the ELM).

Any chance the vacuum line on the reg is bad? It shouldn't do what you describe, but a pain in the caboose to check. I would be VERY doubtful that it would do much.

If you could create a controlled "leak" after the MAF but before the throttle body, it would help things, but hard to manage, as it needs to be larger with higher rpm. But you get the idea, it needs more air through, almost like the MAF is reading wrong and assuming too much air when it isn't really there. I honestly don't think it is the MAF. Borrow a MAF off another truck/car. That is a popular MAF, 96-mid 2000's on many GM cars/trucks from 3.1L V6's to 496 V8's. Even the LT1 and LT4 used the exact same one. So you can rule it out pretty quickly.

You could also take a test drive with the MAF unplugged, that would toss it into the VE tables only, but it runs rich that way anyway, so might not tell too much, but it would still run. GM does crappy stuff when a sensor is offline....


I'll yank the MAF out tomorrow and see. I haven't put a new air filter in, so I don't actually know how long that one's been in. It's not visually dirty/plugged up, and the little gauge that's between the filter and MAF doesn't show it being plugged. Still, I'll buy a new filter and see what happens.
Is it possible that there is something other than the FPR or injectors leaking fuel into the manifold? I don't see anything else that could do it. Maybe the little fuel vapor canister doodad (how's that for technical!)?
If I'm reading the numbers correct, both banks are running rich, with bank 2 being just a bit worse. Is that correct?

skills4lou
10-04-2008, 08:28 PM
I'll check the canister purge line/etc too then. Anything in particular to look for there?
I replaced the vacuum line on the FPR at the same time as the FPR, so it' should be good. I'll see if I can get back there too though.
I remember a while back you mentioned seeing about the counts going to the IAC. Not sure if my software is capable of telling me that, do you know? Is it possible my idle is high because the ECM is telling it to? What I mean is, does the computer bump the idle up due to the rich fuel condition, or do you think the two are unrelated?


Just take out the air filter first, see, it won't hurt if you don't do it long and avoid driving down the dirty dusty roads.

Yup, the Canister Purge line can cause problems. Check the air filter on (98-00 are a little different than 96-97) the canister near the drivers side where the second battery would be (or box like I put on mine from my 96 burb) You can take off the cap there and it won't let much through (might get a canister code, but you can clear with the ELM).

Any chance the vacuum line on the reg is bad? It shouldn't do what you describe, but a pain in the caboose to check. I would be VERY doubtful that it would do much.

If you could create a controlled "leak" after the MAF but before the throttle body, it would help things, but hard to manage, as it needs to be larger with higher rpm. But you get the idea, it needs more air through, almost like the MAF is reading wrong and assuming too much air when it isn't really there. I honestly don't think it is the MAF.

You could also take a test drive with the MAF unplugged, that would toss it into the VE tables only, but it runs rich that way anyway, so might not tell too much, but it would still run. GM does crappy stuff when a sensor is offline....

skills4lou
10-05-2008, 05:56 PM
Well I checked the purge canister, and found this:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/chrissylouwho79/truck/IMG_6900.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/chrissylouwho79/truck/IMG_6899.jpg
Notice the bugs/dirt/junk in there? I took the canister out and cleaned all that out. We'll see if that helps. The cover was in place on the canister, I just removed it for pics.

The yellow hose was for troubleshooting the rain leak repair. IT'S FIXED!

N0DIH
10-06-2008, 03:21 PM
I cleaned mine out when I found mine running pig rich, didn't help.... Edit (thought fixed was the rich issue...sorry!)


Well I checked the purge canister, and found this:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/chrissylouwho79/truck/IMG_6900.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a20/chrissylouwho79/truck/IMG_6899.jpg
Notice the bugs/dirt/junk in there? I took the canister out and cleaned all that out. We'll see if that helps. The cover was in place on the canister, I just removed it for pics.

The yellow hose was for troubleshooting the rain leak repair. IT'S FIXED!

skills4lou
10-06-2008, 06:03 PM
Yeah, the rain leak is fixed. Haven't had a chance to check the engine. I need to buy a new air filter and some electrical parts cleaner, gonna clean the MAF again.

N0DIH
10-06-2008, 06:16 PM
Grab the HD filter, it is larger and has more surface area and usually only $1 more on the cheaper ones. I do like the Wix quality of the filter, so if you are getting one, tha is a very good quality piece.

skills4lou
10-06-2008, 07:08 PM
I always buy filters at Napa, they're supposed to be made by Wix, to the same specs, just Napa logo on the outside. I don't skimp on those anymore.
I did do a highly unscientific test of the little vacuum gauge near the air filter: I pulled the filter off and blocked inlet with my hand just enough to almost kill the motor. The gauge hardly moved at all. I then reinstalled the filter and revved the motor: no movement whatsoever on the gauge. So, I'm guessing it's worthless. New filter soon, then we'll see what happens.
On a side note I sent the guy at blackbear an email about getting a tune on my truck. He's looking over my data log to see what he can find too. I'm hoping to have him do a custom tune, but I gotta figure out this dang rich condition first.

N0DIH
10-08-2008, 09:39 PM
I do PCM tunes also, I could tune out the rich condition, but it would be bandaiding a problem, and honestly it will never run right, better, but not right. The more I see the small scratches in the bores and pistons, the less I like K&N's. They just let too much dirt by for a couple hp, IF at all they gain any. I WON'T run one with my roots blown 3800, I saw a 3.8L ford with a M90 Eaton on it like mine and the scratches on the rotors and case were awful. Yup, good choice in filters. I like the HD ones because same filtration, but more surface area, so less restriction.

I guess it is possible the FPR is bad again, I would be surprised, mine has seen a good amount of E85, and not failed.

Try this, Run it, get it warm, and then shut off and smell inside the intake, see if you get a strong smell of fuel. If the FPR is leaking, it likely will smell.



I always buy filters at Napa, they're supposed to be made by Wix, to the same specs, just Napa logo on the outside. I don't skimp on those anymore.
I did do a highly unscientific test of the little vacuum gauge near the air filter: I pulled the filter off and blocked inlet with my hand just enough to almost kill the motor. The gauge hardly moved at all. I then reinstalled the filter and revved the motor: no movement whatsoever on the gauge. So, I'm guessing it's worthless. New filter soon, then we'll see what happens.
On a side note I sent the guy at blackbear an email about getting a tune on my truck. He's looking over my data log to see what he can find too. I'm hoping to have him do a custom tune, but I gotta figure out this dang rich condition first.

skills4lou
10-09-2008, 06:20 AM
Thanks, I'll try that. I still have to pick up the new AF. I might just warm it up good and yank the throttle body. I think I might be able to actually see the bottom of the intake. If it's the FPR again, I should see fuel in there close to the vacuum port for the FPR, right?
I want to have it running right before I do the PCM tune, so I think we have the same philosophy there. Other than my trip to MT this summer my truck actually gets very little use. I change the oil at ~3k miles, which usually works out to about 6 month intervals. I've actually been commuting on my bike, so the truck sits and waits. I don't want to have to feed it any more fuel than necessary though when I am using it. :)

PullinCrazy88
10-09-2008, 05:34 PM
anyone out there consecutively spinning rpms around or over 5000 with a stock cam. i thought i had a donught gasket start leaking but now i think i might be getting lifter knock. if i compression test the cylinders would i find one or more that is down on compression due to this. or any other flaws i might find. motor doesnt seems to have any noticeable power loss.

N0DIH
10-09-2008, 11:41 PM
Stock cam? No reason to.... Stock PCM is set to 4500 rpm redline, so it won't anyway. I have revved mine up to 5500 a few times, it is just not worth it, 4500-4800 rpm is about all that it is worth spinning the stock L29 cam too....

Maybe toss in some springs, straighten out the intake tract, and a good exhaust and it will do better. Note the 496/8100 has a SMALLER cam on a LARGER engine than the 454/7400 and it will spin to 5000 rpm and be worth while.

Stock springs are lousy, replace them on sight. It is asking for it to try to rev them high, it will valve float and cause other issues with possibly chipping the cam or damaging the lifter or both.

So check the springs, maybe they are just shot.


anyone out there consecutively spinning rpms around or over 5000 with a stock cam. i thought i had a donught gasket start leaking but now i think i might be getting lifter knock. if i compression test the cylinders would i find one or more that is down on compression due to this. or any other flaws i might find. motor doesnt seems to have any noticeable power loss.

GIMECHANIC_454
10-10-2008, 12:31 PM
Hey GIMech, Welcome! Are you the same guy that was looking for help with GM's Security system a year or so back?

NODIH, thanks as always for the info. If you're ever in DE I'm buying the beer and BBQ supplies!
yes that would be me.. we ended up changing locations and going further north but we had to get rid of the truck so we gave it to one of the personal securities companies on camp taji..its good the hear from ya again.

xx_ED_xx
10-10-2008, 12:44 PM
my v6 tach doesnt read right but i spin mine over 6000 on a daily basis :D with a stock cam

PullinCrazy88
10-10-2008, 04:36 PM
thanks for the info. my pcm hits the revlimiter at about 5400 and when im pulling im looking for more wheel speed down the track and i am afraid to shift my trans due to being stock still and dont wanna blow out my 1-2 shift. atleast the season is over till next year. hopfully have done a cam and a few other things by that time.

started making a funny whinning noise at lower rpms yesterday morning to... but it only does it when its cold.

xx_ED_xx
10-10-2008, 04:59 PM
MAnual or auto?

PullinCrazy88
10-10-2008, 05:03 PM
auto.

skills4lou
10-10-2008, 06:11 PM
Hey NODIH, I got the new air filter installed yesterday, and drove the truck back and forth to work. Had the logger going, but saved it in some screwy format that's useless. Anyway the STFT's where running a little above and below 0%, LTFT's where running roughly -10%. Still looking a bit rich, but that helped. I didn't get any codes for rich condition, just a pending for the idle high condition. Have to wait for the next $$day for that.

Is anyone near Baltimore going to the get together on the 25th? I'm planning on bringing the family and meeting a few guys there. Justin from Blackbear is planning on being there too.

Smith97_454
10-11-2008, 09:52 PM
97 with 90k. Nelson tuned, Thorley tri-y headers, volant intake. Ive started readig this thread and havent gotten anywhere close to the end yet. Anyway what should i do next and also ive read and seems a lot of you go to the W4M tune and noticed alot. Mu truck was stock when i had my Nelson dne and i really didnt notice all that much. Maybe a little more giddy up but not all that impressed. Think i should get a re-tune with W4M? I have yet to have the truck re-tuned by nelson for the headers and intake. What do you guys think? Im also thinking my next mod should be the cam

Also i notice my biggest improvement either when i cut off the cats or when i put the headers on afterwards. Its a toss up

Smith97_454
10-11-2008, 10:16 PM
also i have noticed a smell of raw fuel when running the truck. Is this the injector issue? also what injectors should i jump up to?

rckymtn454
10-13-2008, 09:16 AM
yes that would be me.. we ended up changing locations and going further north but we had to get rid of the truck so we gave it to one of the personal securities companies on camp taji..its good the hear from ya again.

Hey GImech, I spent a couple days in Taji back in 04 and all of 06 at warhorse. Diyala province was a fun place... I have alot of respect for you mechanics, especially in OIF 1, gotta love changing track in knee deep mud!!!

GIMECHANIC_454
10-13-2008, 09:44 AM
Hey GImech, I spent a couple days in Taji back in 04 and all of 06 at warhorse. Diyala province was a fun place... I have alot of respect for you mechanics, especially in OIF 1, gotta love changing track in knee deep mud!!!
yeah it sucks thank god i only had to do it once and i assisted the 2 other mechs with it, is not fun on an M88!!!,we did not have M1's we had strykers.. but i know what ya mean, the diyala province is a fun place and it was even better durring OIF III i was at Q-West base complex(Fob Endurance oct 04 - sept05) for OIF VII-IX we were at Camp Taji for most of the deployment and then they moved our regement to camp warhorse, which is not bad its small but nice. we have been kickin azz and taking name out here. sorry not trying to threadjack...my headers have shipped on the 10th of oct and they should be waiting for me in germany i am so happy, i got the edelbrock shorty headers creamic stainless, and ill post some pics and video when i get back to germany

Smith97_454
10-14-2008, 08:53 PM
Anyone?

rjtrans2
10-14-2008, 09:15 PM
96 crewcab dually, 502 with a comp cam good from 1800-5800rpm. roller rockers, bigger injectors, ported and polished heads, had work done to intake fuel runners, larger throttle body. K&n filter, and a superchips programmer to make it all come together right. It also put my speedometer right on the money since I went from 4.10 to 3.23 and a posi. The down side to 3.23 is I can't get a big load going as quickly, but once on the highway watch out. Added headers and three inch exhaust with flows all the way to the rear. I get 14.5mpg at 65mph, my wife swears up and down she gets 16, must be doing 40mph every where she goes, who knows. must be driving harder than she does.http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/22450/2391492940104190378S500x500Q85.jpg

N0DIH
10-15-2008, 12:29 AM
What are you goals for the truck? Yes, the stock cam and valve springs are the biggest hold back for power and higher rpm power. The cam is around 206/210 degrees @ 0.050, so a larger cam will really wake it up. But for sure, explore everything else first, but the stock cam is only good to 4500 rpm, maybe a little higher, so if you need to rev higher, it will need mods there. But you will lose some bottom end by moving the powerband up in the rpm range.


97 with 90k. Nelson tuned, Thorley tri-y headers, volant intake. Ive started readig this thread and havent gotten anywhere close to the end yet. Anyway what should i do next and also ive read and seems a lot of you go to the W4M tune and noticed alot. Mu truck was stock when i had my Nelson dne and i really didnt notice all that much. Maybe a little more giddy up but not all that impressed. Think i should get a re-tune with W4M? I have yet to have the truck re-tuned by nelson for the headers and intake. What do you guys think? Im also thinking my next mod should be the cam

Also i notice my biggest improvement either when i cut off the cats or when i put the headers on afterwards. Its a toss up

N0DIH
10-15-2008, 12:29 AM
Nice, still love the C3500 dually crew cabs!


96 crewcab dually, 502 with a comp cam good from 1800-5800rpm. roller rockers, bigger injectors, ported and polished heads, had work done to intake fuel runners, larger throttle body. K&n filter, and a superchips programmer to make it all come together right. It also put my speedometer right on the money since I went from 4.10 to 3.23 and a posi. The down side to 3.23 is I can't get a big load going as quickly, but once on the highway watch out. Added headers and three inch exhaust with flows all the way to the rear. I get 14.5mpg at 65mph, my wife swears up and down she gets 16, must be doing 40mph every where she goes, who knows. must be driving harder than she does.http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/22450/2391492940104190378S500x500Q85.jpg

Smith97_454
10-15-2008, 12:49 PM
What are you goals for the truck? Yes, the stock cam and valve springs are the biggest hold back for power and higher rpm power. The cam is around 206/210 degrees @ 0.050, so a larger cam will really wake it up. But for sure, explore everything else first, but the stock cam is only good to 4500 rpm, maybe a little higher, so if you need to rev higher, it will need mods there. But you will lose some bottom end by moving the powerband up in the rpm range.

Id just like the truck to be able to turn my 38's over with ease or maybe around 4-500 horse

N0DIH
10-15-2008, 01:00 PM
You'll need a cam for sure. 38's? Probably gonna need some more gear too, 4.56's or 5.14's would not be too far out really, 4.71's would be very close to same overall ratio of 3.73's and 31's to 38's.

Concentrate on torque, so don't know go too big on the cam, you will lose bottom end, else you will need a converter to get things back.

Might be better off looking for a Whipple or Procharger...

skills4lou
10-15-2008, 06:08 PM
If only I could afford the supercharger....

Someday. It's fun to think of the possibilities though! I'm just planning the major mods for mine if it every takes a dump. So far there's no sign of that happening though.

N0DIH
10-15-2008, 08:50 PM
I would be content with a 6L LQ4 in there honestly. Anyone got a LQ4 they wanna trade for a L29 454 (can't hurt to ask!)?


If only I could afford the supercharger....

Someday. It's fun to think of the possibilities though! I'm just planning the major mods for mine if it every takes a dump. So far there's no sign of that happening though.

Smith97_454
10-16-2008, 04:18 PM
I didnt think that anybody still made superchargers for our trucks. If so i would consider it.

As far as gears im already running 5.38's with a detroit. Sometimes i wonder if the reason that its hard to do is because of the blocks in my rear end causing extreme axle rap. The truck will kind of bounce then launch. Im putting a set of custom traction bars on and we will see after that. How hard is a cam swap in these trucks? Id like more low end and maybe something that has nice lope to it. Not sure if the lope will sacrifice power though, if so then id prefer the power. Also where do you guys feel your power kick in at. Seems like for me its around2-3k.

N0DIH
10-19-2008, 12:43 PM
I did it!!! I broke 15 mpg!!! 103 miles, 6.8 gallons and got 15.01 mpg!! 70 mph cruise speed.... Mostly highway, but still!

Details:
Still haven't put in my new O2, running a WB, running 14.7-15.2 AFR at cruise
My timing tables
Mostly always locked up TCC (not good how I had it for daily driving or towing). But for DD can be made to do well with some refinement, was sorta quick toss together.

Finally!!

Any other 454 owners in the 15 mpg club?

skills4lou
10-19-2008, 04:06 PM
Show off!



:D
I only get 15 outta mine when I'm going downhill with a tail wind.

dietzster
10-19-2008, 05:17 PM
My 454 is running great, on my last highway trip with it I finally broke 15mpg!! First time ever! And that was at 130 kph, I can't stand doing the speed limit. I thought that was great for a crew cab dually, had it loaded with the wife and kid, dogs and a bunch of luggage, even through a real hilly stretch about 90 km's long

N0DIH
10-19-2008, 11:23 PM
Cool! I knew it could be done... it just doesn't make sense most get so bad. If a carb'd 455 with 2.73's and no OD can get 18, sheesh an injected 454 with OD and modern EFI should do at LEAST that....

likearock454
10-20-2008, 02:31 PM
15+ MPG Club Member here.

N0DIH
10-20-2008, 03:26 PM
Sounds like we need a new thread.... How to get 15+ mpg out of a 454....

Blazerguy
10-21-2008, 03:45 AM
15mpg out of that mill...awesome. Those are in Suburbans and crew cab duallys...even more impressive.

I'm in Kuwait/Iraq depending on what day you ask me...and I have some ideas burning holes in my mind. Is there anyone out there who has or could take some good detailed underhood L29 pics and pm them (or a link to them) to me? If anyone is interested PM me and I'll let you know the areas of interest.

Smith97_454
10-21-2008, 03:11 PM
back to my injector issues lol....
Have a set of 36lb injectors on the way and was wondering if i shouldnt change the FPR while at it? If so where exactly is it on these trucks. One last thing, how hard is it to change the injectors and the FPR
Thanks

skills4lou
10-21-2008, 06:48 PM
Having troubles posting, but I'll try one last time:
It's pretty easy to change the injectors/fpr, just a bit time consuming. If you're using a Haynes, ignore the line about draining the coolant: not required on the L29. It's much easier to replace the FPR while you are doing the injectors. It's at the back of the engine just beside the distributor. You'll need a good pair of snap ring pliers.
It's also a good time to replace the cap/rotor/plugs/wires if needed.

N0DIH
10-21-2008, 06:58 PM
+1!!


Having troubles posting, but I'll try one last time:
It's pretty easy to change the injectors/fpr, just a bit time consuming. If you're using a Haynes, ignore the line about draining the coolant: not required on the L29. It's much easier to replace the FPR while you are doing the injectors. It's at the back of the engine just beside the distributor. You'll need a good pair of snap ring pliers.
It's also a good time to replace the cap/rotor/plugs/wires if needed.

Smith97_454
10-21-2008, 09:17 PM
any idea on torque specs

skills4lou
10-22-2008, 05:42 PM
Upper intake: 10 ft-lbs
Remember it's all aluminum, snug it up but DON'T reef on it.

Pauly
10-22-2008, 11:26 PM
Those injectors are huge for a stock Vortec 454, do you plan on supercharging? Those 36rs will act like 55's at the Vortec fuel presssure.
Who is tuning for your injectors? You need to change the IFR(injector flow rate) parameter.

peace
PAuly

TowingTweeder
10-23-2008, 05:10 AM
Hey guys. Add me to the list of owners, 1998 Chevy 3500HD crew cab, all 12,500 pounds of her.

I am going to be doing some upgrades to her. its a full blown tow truck and i want the most of out it.

starting with the usual cold start just fine / warm start bs..
New FPR i have already. I was wanting to add new injectors, distributor, plugs and wires, and a programmer. I have been doing a lot of research and reading. Also talking to shops they all say just stay stock..

Any ideas on how to make this baby roll? I don't care about mpg really. Kansas City where I work out of is a wreck chasing town may the fastest tow truck win :D

http://c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/15/m_6058a5df077a4d34a987dbbcef4ab789.jpg
not the best pick but nextel phones are crap with them

N0DIH
10-23-2008, 05:30 AM
I'll try to. Been a long time since I was in the theater of ops! We camped out at a blown up airstrip in Kuwait for a few weeks before we moved back up into Iraq (1991). I was in 123rd MSB, 1st AD (DISCOM) but attached to B/25FA (TAB) up with DIVARTY then.

My drive back from Iraq to Saudi then was watching oil field fires and having to keep the windows up in the truck because the heat was soooo hot at over a mile away it was getting uncomfortable (March/April 91).




15mpg out of that mill...awesome. Those are in Suburbans and crew cab duallys...even more impressive.

I'm in Kuwait/Iraq depending on what day you ask me...and I have some ideas burning holes in my mind. Is there anyone out there who has or could take some good detailed underhood L29 pics and pm them (or a link to them) to me? If anyone is interested PM me and I'll let you know the areas of interest.

skills4lou
10-23-2008, 06:35 PM
Welcome Tweeder! You should try to hook up with BanksPowered 98. He's in your area, and has a lot of knowledge on these motors. You might consider upgrading the injectors to a higher flow rate, if you think you'll be doing a computer tune. If you can, plan what you'll be doing and it'll save you from replacing things down the road. The injectors are getting close to maxed out at stock HP, so if you're planning on increasing much you'll need higher flow ones. Lot's of guys on here like Blackbear and Wester. NODIH obviously has a very extensive knowledge of the L29 as well. He tunes his own truck.

Smith97_454
10-23-2008, 06:44 PM
Those injectors are huge for a stock Vortec 454, do you plan on supercharging? Those 36rs will act like 55's at the Vortec fuel presssure.
Who is tuning for your injectors? You need to change the IFR(injector flow rate) parameter.

peace
PAuly
55's. Where are you pulling this stat from. Everything ive heard, read and been informed state they will be fine. Heck just for 400 horse at the flywheel you need 31 lb injectors. Granted i dont have huge mods done but i believe with a tune done these can be controlled correctly. Also i hope to hit 500 or more in the next year. I would be at that by now if it wasnt for college taking all my money.

BTW what would you guys estimate my horsepower and torque to be at the flywheel with this engine with my mods being a tune, Headers and a CAI

TowingTweeder
10-23-2008, 08:18 PM
I found a set of 24# injectors out of a 99 mustang 4.6L for 90 bucks i am wondering if these are what i am looking for, and yeah i am going to do a computer tune also.

Pauly
10-23-2008, 08:46 PM
55's. Where are you pulling this stat from. Everything ive heard, read and been informed state they will be fine. Heck just for 400 horse at the flywheel you need 31 lb injectors. Granted i dont have huge mods done but i believe with a tune done these can be controlled correctly. Also i hope to hit 500 or more in the next year. I would be at that by now if it wasnt for college taking all my money.

BTW what would you guys estimate my horsepower and torque to be at the flywheel with this engine with my mods being a tune, Headers and a CAI
Your 36 pph injectors will actually flow 42.38 pph at 60 psi or 44.3pph at 66psi. I got the 55 off the top of my head, way off sorry.

You dont need 31 lb injectors for 400 hp. There are guys on this forum making 430hp with 19 pph injectors that actually flow 22.3 pph at the Vortec 60psi of rail pressure on the smallblocks.

The stock 22.3pph(at 43.5psi) 454 injectors actually flow 26.1pph at 60psi of rail pressure.

I never said anything would be wrong, I was just wondering why you went so big? If you go too big, idle stability suffers. You will be fine with PCM tuning.

I just ran a simulation for 400hp and you need 25.37pph injectors at 66psi or 26.6pph at 60 psi, using 0.5 BBFC(NA) and a 80% inector duty cycle.

peace
PAuly

Smith97_454
10-23-2008, 09:33 PM
well N0DIH found these for me for 80 bucks, which is a hell of a price for 8. plus like i said i plan to tune however i didnt realize that the vortec had such high pressure.


Your 36 pph injectors will actually flow 42.38 pph at 60 psi or 44.3pph at 66psi. I got the 55 off the top of my head, way off sorry.

You dont need 31 lb injectors for 400 hp. There are guys on this forum making 430hp with 19 pph injectors that actually flow 22.3 pph at the Vortec 60psi of rail pressure on the smallblocks.

The stock 22.3pph(at 43.5psi) 454 injectors actually flow 26.1pph at 60psi of rail pressure.

I never said anything would be wrong, I was just wondering why you went so big? If you go too big, idle stability suffers. You will be fine with PCM tuning.

I just ran a simulation for 400hp and you need 25.37pph injectors at 66psi or 26.6pph at 60 psi, using 0.5 BBFC(NA) and a 80% inector duty cycle.

peace
PAuly

TowingTweeder
10-24-2008, 12:42 PM
Well i did it. i ordered m new injectors today, they will be here Tuesday. I called Jesse at Wait4me and he is out of town until Nov. 11th and they will not be doing any shipping until he gets back. Is there any other place you can recommend to get my tune done?

N0DIH
10-24-2008, 01:43 PM
What all do you want changed? Basic power tune setup with the larger injectors? Shoot me a PM....

Smith97_454
10-24-2008, 06:46 PM
Back to the Tuning thing does anybody have any opinion on what i stated earlier about my Nelson tune vs a W4M tune

xx_ED_xx
10-24-2008, 06:50 PM
No idea I do my own tuning

N0DIH
10-24-2008, 06:58 PM
I do my own as well....

Smith97_454
10-24-2008, 08:50 PM
Lol wish i could do my own tuning. Must be nice!!

chevylife
10-24-2008, 09:02 PM
I didnt think that anybody still made superchargers for our trucks. If so i would consider it.

As far as gears im already running 5.38's with a detroit. Sometimes i wonder if the reason that its hard to do is because of the blocks in my rear end causing extreme axle rap. The truck will kind of bounce then launch. Im putting a set of custom traction bars on and we will see after that. How hard is a cam swap in these trucks? Id like more low end and maybe something that has nice lope to it. Not sure if the lope will sacrifice power though, if so then id prefer the power. Also where do you guys feel your power kick in at. Seems like for me its around2-3k.

Smith97_454, where did you find 5.38 for your axles? The last I heard, the lowest gears on the market were 4.88 for the 9.25 IFS front end. Thanks in advance.

N0DIH
10-24-2008, 09:08 PM
Nice? Very! Expensive as heck? YES. I have a fair amount invested into it. Others have even more. And if I get things together, I will be able to do real time tuning on the Vortec 454, quite possibly for the first time anyone has!


Lol wish i could do my own tuning. Must be nice!!

Smith97_454
10-25-2008, 12:24 AM
well **** the injectors. One week ago today somebody stole my radio out of my car at work. Today my injectors were delivered and go figure those are gone too.

Smith97_454
10-25-2008, 12:26 AM
Oh and chevylife. Been making 5.38's for about 2 years now i think and even 5.13's have been out for a while. I got the gears from an offraod shop that offered "forum" discounts. I dont think they do that any more but here is a place that has them, and i actually ordered my install kits from. They have good prices and are easy to work with

http://completeoffroad.com/c-59905-g-m-9-25-i-f-s.html

N0DIH
10-25-2008, 12:39 AM
Dang! Someone just gave me a factory radio yesterday, want it?


well **** the injectors. One week ago today somebody stole my radio out of my car at work. Today my injectors were delivered and go figure those are gone too.

Smith97_454
10-25-2008, 10:54 AM
Dang! Someone just gave me a factory radio yesterday, want it?
No thanks, appreciate it though. Irs for my Neon which it wont fit. I do have another stereo to put into it thought which will work

N0DIH
10-25-2008, 11:04 AM
Watch local Craigslist and see if they try to dump them fast

Smith97_454
10-25-2008, 02:40 PM
Watch local Craigslist and see if they try to dump them fast
ten bucks says its the kids that live around here and they dont have no clue what the hell they are.

Anybody have any oil leak problems with these engines? Mine has been parked since ive been back in school and my dad said it was leaking. I think it might be the oil cooler line. Anybody else have experience with this

rocnrol
10-25-2008, 07:38 PM
hey............when you guys are posting your fuel milage, are you using imperial gallons or us gallons? being in canada eh, we have to convert to get m.p.g. depending on wich gal. i use i either get 10mpg us gal , or 12mpg imperial gal.

works out to .24cent a kilometer to run my truck right now.

Pauly
10-26-2008, 02:11 PM
Nice? Very! Expensive as heck? YES. I have a fair amount invested into it. Others have even more. And if I get things together, I will be able to do real time tuning on the Vortec 454, quite possibly for the first time anyone has!
EFILive has supported the Vortec engines for a while now, Roadrunner has also been out for a while.

Chances are you may be the 1st FSC member to do so.

peace
PAuly

chevylife
10-26-2008, 11:24 PM
Thanks. Yeah, it's been a long time since I checked into parts for my 97 crewcab. I had things all planned out but things got put on hold so now I'm getting back into the game. I guess I'll have to start my research all over again. I figured as our trucks got older, manufactures would stop making new parts for them. Go figure...

vr1967
10-28-2008, 03:14 PM
Well,
I just jumped on the bandwagon. Yesterday I picked up a 2000 CCSB 4wd. Needs injectors and FPR, exhaust leak fixed and a few odds and ends.
Has anyone here converted to the 0411 computer? I have done so on my CC w/5.7 but was wondering if anyone has done it with the 7.4.
Thanks,
Virgil

Smith97_454
10-28-2008, 05:23 PM
Well,
I just jumped on the bandwagon. Yesterday I picked up a 2000 CCSB 4wd. Needs injectors and FPR, exhaust leak fixed and a few odds and ends.
Has anyone here converted to the 0411 computer? I have done so on my CC w/5.7 but was wondering if anyone has done it with the 7.4.
Thanks,
Virgil
whats the 0411 computer

vr1967
10-28-2008, 07:01 PM
It is the newer faster processing computer such as used by the LS series of engines. They used the L31 (Vortec 5.7) until 01 or 02, so we are using that tune in the computer and getting rid of the "black box" (Vortec style) ECMs. Have to repin the connectors (the newer style use 2 connectors instead of 5 (96-97 year model) or 4 (98-00)
Well check on another board I get on and see if anyone there has done it. (It is where I found out about it for the 5.7)

elkhunter
10-28-2008, 09:51 PM
How are you people getting 15 mpg? The best I can get is 10 mpg empty or loaded.

Smith97_454
10-28-2008, 09:59 PM
**** i get 10 with 5.38's and 38.5 inch tires and thats running 70 down the highway which is causing me to spin high rpms at around 23-2400 RPM

xx_ED_xx
10-30-2008, 07:55 AM
yes the oil cooler lines leak. I bought new gm ones. I may be selling my Gm performance parts heads and some other stuff soon if anyone is interested

TowingTweeder
10-30-2008, 05:52 PM
I did it i put my new injectors, FPR, plugs, wires, cap and rotor. This truck starts like it is brand spanking new now. Now all I need to do is wait for my other PCM :( so i can get this tuned and see what it really does. Did i mention i love this truck now!

thanks for the help N0DIH, much appreciated

N0DIH
10-30-2008, 06:01 PM
Cool!

vr1967
11-01-2008, 07:30 AM
Got to do a bit of work on the truck a day or two ago. Had a major leak on the flange inbetween the cats. Took off passenger side cat to replace pipe, and cat was hollow. Cut off drivers bank one and it was heavy, so I cut the muffler off and found parts of the cat in it. Ended up eliminating the cats and installed a new muffler and it is a totally different truck. Muffler must have been plugged. I have a new FPR and am waiting on my injectors from Fiveomotorsports. Will do plugs wires, cap and rotor while I'm in there.
Have the door hinge pins sorted out so I should be in good shape.

Virgil

Hatfieco
11-02-2008, 09:50 PM
I have a 99 K2500 4x4 with the 7.4 and it runs pretty good I definitely want more though! So far I have Msd 8.5mm wires, kn intake, edelbrock headers, true duals with 40series. Im interested in the wait4me tune how do I get ahold of em. Im not looking for too much more but around 375-400 would be nice. What do you guys think the best mods for me would be. Dont tow too much, like decent freeway mileage right now im at 13.7 to 15 on the freeway and 11 or so around town.

imprezkid
11-02-2008, 11:54 PM
Got to do a bit of work on the truck a day or two ago. Had a major leak on the flange inbetween the cats. Took off passenger side cat to replace pipe, and cat was hollow. Cut off drivers bank one and it was heavy, so I cut the muffler off and found parts of the cat in it. Ended up eliminating the cats and installed a new muffler and it is a totally different truck. Muffler must have been plugged. I have a new FPR and am waiting on my injectors from Fiveomotorsports. Will do plugs wires, cap and rotor while I'm in there.
Have the door hinge pins sorted out so I should be in good shape.

Virgil

What does the truck sound like now, i've had a leak in the cats for a while and don't want to spend the $$ on new ones? Did you throw any CEL's? I don't want something loud just want to get rid of the cats and have a good sounding BB.

imprezkid
11-02-2008, 11:56 PM
Another question, im guessing this might be the FPR but has anyone experienced there oil filling with gas, mechanic said the injectors were wide open at idle, truck feels like it has no more power at 3/4 than 1/4? any thoughts, its a 96 competely stock with the exhaust leak

imprezkid
11-03-2008, 12:28 AM
and for my third post after reading back about 10 pages...

So to get good power out of a stock L29, following is recommended:
headers/exhaust??
injectors
FPR?
and a good tune? W4M or (from reading) NODIH can do some

how about ignition? i know somebody was running msd, with a blaster coil or something along those lines

just looking for good power with decent milage, usually pulling go size trailers.

one more thing, is it correct that my 96 4l80e can't be tuned?

thanks so much

vr1967
11-03-2008, 08:10 AM
What does the truck sound like now, i've had a leak in the cats for a while and don't want to spend the $$ on new ones? Did you throw any CEL's? I don't want something loud just want to get rid of the cats and have a good sounding BB.

I put back on a stock style muffler so it is reasonably quiet. No codes, due to truck not having post cat o2 sensors. Now if my injectors would just get here!

imprezkid
11-03-2008, 01:46 PM
I put back on a stock style muffler so it is reasonably quiet. No codes, due to truck not having post cat o2 sensors. Now if my injectors would just get here!

Really, i sore our 96 had post cat o2's?

skills4lou
11-03-2008, 04:46 PM
I just had to post back my latest mpg's. I made the trip over to MD for the FSC get-together a couple weekends ago. That and one trip to work and back, total of 221 miles, and I burned 17.4 gallons. So, my mileage is back up to 12.7 for that trip. Wahoo!! I had been getting 10.1-10.3, regardless of the trip type.
My secret weapon for better mpg's? A new HD filter, in the OE box. I also seem to have fixed the P0147 code (rich condition, bank 2). I have no idea why it was only bank 2 that popped the code. I was making the mistake of believing the little filter restriction gauge in the intake, and waiting for it to show something. Well, come to find out that thing must have been made in china because it's worthless. After installing the new filter I thought I'd go back and check the gauge. I removed the filter, and slowly plugged the intake with my hand while the engine was running. I was able to completely kill the engine, and the gauge never moved, not even a little! Same deal when I just plugged the intake quickly.
Now if only I'd have done that 4 months ago!!

vr1967
11-03-2008, 06:57 PM
Really, i sore our 96 had post cat o2's?

MY 96 C3500 has post cats. My 2000 k2500 does NOT. Not sure why.
Injectors came in today. Have the FPR cap rotor and wires, will pick up AC plugs in the morning. Pulled upper plenum, had 4 injectors leaking. Truck actually had a white "haze" coming out of tailpipe, it was running so rich. I bought it from a 67 year old lady (Yes, she owned a CCSB K2500 with 7.4!) so there are some minor mechanical issues. Interior was MINT. Truck has a few scratches and small dents, but overall in EXC condition. Black, w/ dark gray interior, loaded. Wasn't a bad deal for $3700.
Will get it back together tomorrow. Got the hydroboost on today, and should be set.

twobluechevy
11-04-2008, 05:39 PM
Dont own one, but got to use a 1996 eclb with a 7.4 Vortec, 5 spd. wow did that thing move down the road. First day i drove it I laid a shat load of rubber at the local red light (we only have one)

Smith97_454
11-04-2008, 06:12 PM
Dont own one, but got to use a 1996 eclb with a 7.4 Vortec, 5 spd. wow did that thing move down the road. First day i drove it I laid a shat load of rubber at the local red light (we only have one)
yeah they **** and get

and lol at the rede light comment

blu92
11-04-2008, 10:59 PM
Not sure if I should post this in here or not, but here goes... I just got a new ticking sound. It sounds exactly like an old school flat tappet lifter tick. Changes with rpm. Not an exhaust leak. I'm going to pull valve covers here in a couple days and see what I see. Anyone else had a mysterious tick show up? It's actually louder under the motor than above it, but if it's a bad roller or spring on the cam then maybe this would be the case?? Any help would be appreciated. (this is on the '00 454, 150,000 miles)

imprezkid
11-05-2008, 08:01 PM
Anybody know the deal with the o2's on 1996 BB's? Can the tuning program them out? Is the trans tunable?

N0DIH
11-05-2008, 08:28 PM
Yes, I can tune them. What are you wanting to do?

blu92
11-05-2008, 08:54 PM
Anyone have any suggestions on my 454 ticking? Should I start a new thread somewhere? Any help is appreciated.

Hatfieco
11-05-2008, 10:40 PM
Does your go away when its warmed up? Mine has a similar one at startup but goes away when warm.

runningute
11-06-2008, 07:20 AM
I have a 97 3500 crew cab with the vortec 7.4 that stalled out on me and now will not restart. I have checked the fuel pump, and coil. Both are working but it's acting like she's not getting fuel or spark. Has anyone else had an issue like this?

Smith97_454
11-06-2008, 10:43 AM
I have a 97 3500 crew cab with the vortec 7.4 that stalled out on me and now will not restart. I have checked the fuel pump, and coil. Both are working but it's acting like she's not getting fuel or spark. Has anyone else had an issue like this?
You check the fuel filter?

Smith97_454
11-06-2008, 10:44 AM
Yes, I can tune them. What are you wanting to do?
Will you do tunes for other members trucks?

runningute
11-06-2008, 10:56 AM
You check the fuel filter?

It's a newer filter only a couple months old. Its sounding more like the timing is off but I had the timing set a month or so ago. When it did try to restart it just stumbled then back fired and now I can't get it to do that. It didn't throw any codes so this is just puzzling me.

N0DIH
11-06-2008, 01:00 PM
I can tune 96-07 (OBS/NBS trucks) as well as most all 3.1/3.4/3.8L cars from 96-05.


Will you do tunes for other members trucks?

bankspowered98
11-06-2008, 01:53 PM
found a whipple on ebay, looks like a pretty decent setup. someone should pick it up!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200271084630&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us

N0DIH
11-06-2008, 02:03 PM
That would be fun!!

what do you expect it to go for?

Tyler_LS1
11-06-2008, 02:11 PM
Great Thread, lots of good info i can use on my 99 K2500 7.4L

xx_ED_xx
11-06-2008, 02:13 PM
Unfortunately that is the smaller of the 2 blowers whipple sold. The last one I tried to buy on ebay. Which had the bigger blower went for 1800.

Smith97_454
11-06-2008, 06:14 PM
I can tune 96-07 (OBS/NBS trucks) as well as most all 3.1/3.4/3.8L cars from 96-05.
Really? how much

blu92
11-07-2008, 12:02 AM
Does your go away when its warmed up? Mine has a similar one at startup but goes away when warm.
Nope, it just keeps on ticking. It gets a little louder when it's fully warmed up. Goes up and down with rpm, louder when under load.

Tyler_LS1
11-07-2008, 12:32 AM
Nope, it just keeps on ticking. It gets a little louder when it's fully warmed up. Goes up and down with rpm, louder when under load.

My guess would be an exhaust leak, prolly up by the manifold

bankspowered98
11-07-2008, 05:19 AM
blu92, it is a good possibility the cam could be having issues. I know myself and others have had to go in and install new OEM or aftermarket cams because of a "ticking." The material GM used on the 7.4 cams was not of the right hardness level. Thus causing the lifters to wear grooves in the stick itself.

Smith97_454
11-07-2008, 06:58 AM
hey Banks.
What MSD ignition do you have?

bankspowered98
11-07-2008, 08:55 AM
MSD 6AL with a MSD Ignition Coil. Taylor 8.5mm wires

rygamer
11-07-2008, 12:46 PM
Guys,
How hard is it to replace the cooler lines? I got a oil leak that is messin up my driveway.

Tyler_LS1
11-07-2008, 02:08 PM
MSD 6AL with a MSD Ignition Coil. Taylor 8.5mm wires

Do you have a sound clip of your Banks Exhaust?

Smith97_454
11-07-2008, 07:40 PM
MSD 6AL with a MSD Ignition Coil. Taylor 8.5mm wires
How does that setup work with a computer controlled vehicle. Dont those boxes mess with the idle and junk

dietzster
11-07-2008, 11:12 PM
Unfortunately that is the smaller of the 2 blowers whipple sold. The last one I tried to buy on ebay. Which had the bigger blower went for 1800.

Do you know the part numbers of both so I know which one to look for? Also do you know the outputs of each compressor?

N0DIH
11-08-2008, 05:26 PM
No they are supposed to give up more ignition power and coil saturation. They also give multiple sparks below 3000 rpm boosting performance and combustion quality. Should improve idle too, the 454 isn't the silkiest idling engine. So it can't hurt. I haven't run one, but a friend has one and is dead set on running them.

They should not interfere at all with the PCM controlling the engine, actually probably help things.


How does that setup work with a computer controlled vehicle. Dont those boxes mess with the idle and junk

Hatfieco
11-08-2008, 06:09 PM
blu92, it is a good possibility the cam could be having issues. I know myself and others have had to go in and install new OEM or aftermarket cams because of a "ticking." The material GM used on the 7.4 cams was not of the right hardness level. Thus causing the lifters to wear grooves in the stick itself.

Do you know what years this happened in? Mine almost sounds like a sticky lifter? Or I had a roller pin go out or something its frustrating the motor only has 80 on it.

4 Speed Dave
11-09-2008, 01:17 PM
Do you know what years this happened in? Mine almost sounds like a sticky lifter? Or I had a roller pin go out or something its frustrating the motor only has 80 on it.


My 98 had 137K on it when the cam ate itself to death. Here look at these pics:

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/Jericoman/98%20C3500/DSC04436.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/Jericoman/98%20C3500/DSC04437.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/Jericoman/98%20C3500/DSC04409.jpg

If the noise increases with RPM and increases in volume under load I would bet the camshaft and roller or rollers are going south. The easiest way to tell is to take off the intake and pull each lifter out and see for yourself.

Hatfieco
11-09-2008, 02:24 PM
Wow thats ugly mine just does it on startup a little bit. Like a sticky lifter tryin to pump up. I wish I could take off my intake but Im out of town for work right now and dont have any access to a shop.

Hatfieco
11-09-2008, 02:28 PM
No they are supposed to give up more ignition power and coil saturation. They also give multiple sparks below 3000 rpm boosting performance and combustion quality. Should improve idle too, the 454 isn't the silkiest idling engine. So it can't hurt. I haven't run one, but a friend has one and is dead set on running them.

They should not interfere at all with the PCM controlling the engine, actually probably help things.

Would you recommend the msd ignition or the jacobs? Says you tuned your own vortec pcm huh? What would you charge to tune someone elses? :aniteef:

the big d
11-09-2008, 06:36 PM
Hi, new here
truck
2000 K2500 454

It's got 2287xx miles on it and runs pretty good, it just drinks a lot of gas(about 9 mpgs). It doesn't always start right up when hot but does when cold. It has plenty of power but it doesn't pull near as well as my dad's 03 2500 with a 6.0 and 4.10's. It needs an exhaust very bad but don't have any extra cash right now, so far it seems like a good truck that needs some maintenance. For 2500 dollars I still think i got a great deal.

Smith97_454
11-09-2008, 09:16 PM
My 98 had 137K on it when the cam ate itself to death. Here look at these pics:

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/Jericoman/98%20C3500/DSC04436.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/Jericoman/98%20C3500/DSC04437.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/Jericoman/98%20C3500/DSC04409.jpg

If the noise increases with RPM and increases in volume under load I would bet the camshaft and roller or rollers are going south. The easiest way to tell is to take off the intake and pull each lifter out and see for yourself.
wow mine ticks for about 15 seconds at startup when it has sat for a week. hope this isnt it

Tyler_LS1
11-10-2008, 12:08 AM
Mines been ticking for a while but only for 10 seconds or so went it hasnt been started for a day or so, it got almost 100K on it, still runs strong, idles a little rough, Been running much smoother when i mixed this...http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/hpi.aspx
at a 1:4 ration with the gas. I run it in my Camaro and the 454

bankspowered98
11-10-2008, 05:39 AM
I would recommend the MSD. I have used it in a number of race cars without issues. Jacobs to me is overpriced.

rocnrol
11-10-2008, 06:07 AM
back to fuel milage. just got back form a trip over the mountians with the camper on going over, empty comming back.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v314/rocnrol/004.jpg

since i last posted about milage, i have got the ram-air hood hooked up. it seems to have made all the difference in the world. going out i got 11mpg, comming back i got 15mpg:eek: . i still havent done a programer yet, so i can only hope it will get better:cool: power seems to be better as well.

xx_ED_xx
11-10-2008, 08:33 AM
Do you know the part numbers of both so I know which one to look for? Also do you know the outputs of each compressor?

Lysholm Used to make the compressors for whipple. You can actually see there name on it. Whipple and lysholm had a falling out. My guess would be thats a 2.3 liter blower.

Are you the one outbidding me on that damn thing :)
<<< eb4y_r4wks

Off the top of my head I dont know the part numbers but i remember paying 60 a peice for the cooler lines.

Hatfieco
11-10-2008, 07:19 PM
Mines been ticking for a while but only for 10 seconds or so went it hasnt been started for a day or so, it got almost 100K on it, still runs strong, idles a little rough, Been running much smoother when i mixed this...http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/hpi.aspx
at a 1:5 ration with the gas. I run it in my Camaro and the 454

Mine does the exact same thing on startup! Could this still be the cam/lifter issue you guys were talkin about earlier?

Hatfieco
11-10-2008, 07:21 PM
I would recommend the MSD. I have used it in a number of race cars without issues. Jacobs to me is overpriced.

Cool and this doesnt affect my pcm at all? Anything to help smoothe it out a little at idle lol.

99kcrewshortbox
11-11-2008, 07:50 PM
got a 99 454 3/4ton short box true dual 3 inch w/flowmasters out the back (less cats) and computer programming done to it, gets 15 on the highway at 70mph, need some advice on a few problems cold starting is very easy but the idle lopes so much it almost stalls then bumps up to over 2000 rpm again does it for about 5 min then runs smooth then when driving cold it somewhat spits and sputters till the temp comes up.

Pauly
11-14-2008, 12:00 PM
Coil Near Plug

If anyone is interested in CNP for their bigblock. get a hold of Mike at EFIConnection.
For the smallblocks they are using the 1998-2000 L21 Bigblock's crank reluctor ring witha 24x impulse per rotation.This 24x ring has to be modified to work on teh smaller SBC crank snout, it simply slides on your guys bigblock cranks. The stock L29 is 4x. They still use the distributer but just to drive the oil pump and for the 1x cam reference pulse.

This swap will be easier for you L29 guys.
I will have the wiring conversions done soon. Ideally you will swap to teh 411 PCM, but you wont use the 01-02 van calibration file liek usual, if youw ant a cable throttle use an LS1 calibration for DBW (Drive by wire)electronic throttle use a Vette calibration(or possibly the L21 calibration).
Then you will need the L21 crank position sensor(the L29 sensor wont work). then you will need somewiring, 8 CNP coils and some other stuff.
here is the link with vids of a Vortec 350 running CNP with a Ramjet intake.
http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7933

I remember Nodih talkig about a possible CNP setup using teh L21 setup, well here it is.

peace
PAuly

N0DIH
11-14-2008, 08:23 PM
Cool! Someone does read my posts :) I thought I was just rambling.... :cool:

http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/general-discussion/performance/306042-who-has-custom-tune-obs-454-vortec.html

For you 454 owners, the L21 engines have mounts on the valve covers for the coils, and you should be able the get the proper coils and coil wires at local parts store.

Might have to look into this, been looking for an excuse to do a 0411 conversion anyway! I have the RoadRunner and the 03 truck computer with the 1MB. Might be able to the a proper E85 454 with the virtual fuel sensor then!


Coil Near Plug

If anyone is interested in CNP for their bigblock. get a hold of Mike at EFIConnection.
For the smallblocks they are using the 1998-2000 L21 Bigblock's crank reluctor ring witha 24x impulse per rotation.This 24x ring has to be modified to work on teh smaller SBC crank snout, it simply slides on your guys bigblock cranks. The stock L29 is 4x. They still use the distributer but just to drive the oil pump and for the 1x cam reference pulse.

This swap will be easier for you L29 guys.
I will have the wiring conversions done soon. Ideally you will swap to teh 411 PCM, but you wont use the 01-02 van calibration file liek usual, if youw ant a cable throttle use an LS1 calibration for DBW (Drive by wire)electronic throttle use a Vette calibration(or possibly the L21 calibration).
Then you will need the L21 crank position sensor(the L29 sensor wont work). then you will need somewiring, 8 CNP coils and some other stuff.
here is the link with vids of a Vortec 350 running CNP with a Ramjet intake.
http://www.pacificp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7933

I remember Nodih talkig about a possible CNP setup using teh L21 setup, well here it is.

peace
PAuly

xx_ED_xx
11-14-2008, 08:24 PM
did nodih say something? :D

N0DIH
11-14-2008, 08:30 PM
who?


did nodih say something? :D

Blazerguy
11-15-2008, 03:44 AM
Yes....an L21. Something that looks like this

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h160/MTorneden/engines/l29.jpg

Bear in mind the front coil is missing in this pic.....

N0DIH
11-15-2008, 08:20 AM
Interesting, never actually looked close at that side of one, it has ETC. Wow, the L21 was the leading edge of a lot, it was an engine built in the mid 90's. Notice the much better plug heat shields. You can see the front crankshaft sensor in the front cover and the different balancer.

N0DIH
11-15-2008, 12:44 PM
I found this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/7.4L-454-Powertrain-Controls---GM-Training-RPO-L21_W0QQitemZ270302164408QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2008 1113?IMSfp=TL0811131210008r23403

I have the P12 Chassis FSM if anyone needs any info it on the L21.... I thought the RV's and P12's had L29's so I figured it would be a good low cost book. but I quickly found out it has the L21 not the L29. Still good info.

If I had to replace my 454 with another, I would go with a L21....

Pauly
11-15-2008, 04:09 PM
I found this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/7.4L-454-Powertrain-Controls---GM-Training-RPO-L21_W0QQitemZ270302164408QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2008 1113?IMSfp=TL0811131210008r23403

I have the P12 Chassis FSM if anyone needs any info it on the L21.... I thought the RV's and P12's had L29's so I figured it would be a good low cost book. but I quickly found out it has the L21 not the L29. Still good info.

If I had to replace my 454 with another, I would go with a L21....
Yeah I saw that. The RVs have the L29 more often than the L21. The L21 is super rare. Even in the motorhomes. I worked at an RV dealer once and only saw 1 of them.
The LP4 is the gas/natural gas dual fuel L21.

here is a list.
2000 CHEVROLET KODIAK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 CHEVROLET MD BUS CHASSIS V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 GMC MD BUS CHASSIS V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 GMC TOPKICK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 GMC TOPKICK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 GMC TOPKICK C7500 6X4 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET KODIAK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 6X4 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET MD BUS CHASSIS V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET P30 V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B
1999 GMC MD BUS CHASSIS V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 GMC P3500 V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B
1999 GMC TOPKICK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 GMC TOPKICK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 GMC TOPKICK C7500 6X4 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1998 CHEVROLET P30 V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B
1998 GMC P3500 V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B

The distributer on the L21 doesnt have a rotor, its just there for the 1x cam sensor info. It has a flat cap with no octopus wire outputs.

the L21 electronically thinks its a Vette system, with CNP and ETC.

L21 is an L29 with a forged crank.

peace
PAuly

Steady Eddie
11-15-2008, 06:10 PM
Hello Boys--it is me, The Real Steady Eddie, and I have the L-21 BB that my friend Tom has told you about...DW and I (and our two black Labs) have just returned from a 3200 mile trip to the Nascar Races in Phoenix, Az.

The L-21 ran cool, tight and strong, lugging a 4000# Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited anchor behind it. This is truly a BB in a HD application as the Newmar Motorhome that sits upon the Chevy P-12 Chassis weighs 18,000# empty!!

I read 15 pages of this amazing thread, then the Forum kinda froze up, and would not let me any further.?

I am pleased that Tom mentioned the spark plug gap mod, although he DID snicker a bit that an RV Shop would actually own and use a full-on Chassis Dyno..LOL

I would be happy to answer any questions, if I know the answer..

Please visit my Yahoo! Forum Group..all about the P-12/L-21--
it is called The_P12_Chassis_Group..all about the infamous "Mystery" Chevy HD Motorhome Chassis...

Thanks for having me as a New Member..

Steady Eddie

Steady Eddie
11-16-2008, 08:31 AM
Yeah I saw that. The RVs have the L29 more often than the L21. The L21 is super rare. Even in the motorhomes. I worked at an RV dealer once and only saw 1 of them.
The LP4 is the gas/natural gas dual fuel L21.

here is a list.
2000 CHEVROLET KODIAK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 CHEVROLET MD BUS CHASSIS V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 GMC MD BUS CHASSIS V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 GMC TOPKICK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 GMC TOPKICK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
2000 GMC TOPKICK C7500 6X4 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET KODIAK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET KODIAK C7500 6X4 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET MD BUS CHASSIS V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 CHEVROLET P30 V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B
1999 GMC MD BUS CHASSIS V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 GMC P3500 V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B
1999 GMC TOPKICK C6500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 GMC TOPKICK C7500 4X2 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1999 GMC TOPKICK C7500 6X4 C 2WD V8 7.4L G MFI Engine VIN = D
1998 CHEVROLET P30 V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B
1998 GMC P3500 V8 7.4L 454cid GAS FI N Engine VIN = B

The distributer on the L21 doesnt have a rotor, its just there for the 1x cam sensor info. It has a flat cap with no octopus wire outputs.

the L21 electronically thinks its a Vette system, with CNP and ETC.

L21 is an L29 with a forged crank.

peace
PAuly
===========================

PAuly---

Thanks for the post...you have most of it right, however the VINs are wrong that you quoted. My L-21 has a "B" in the VIN, no "D"...most of the "kids" at the Auto Parts counters get that "deer in the headlights" look when I tell them it's a L-21..LOL..

Steady Eddie

bankspowered98
11-16-2008, 05:25 PM
ALright guys, I am pondering selling the truck. I need something a bit larger to accomodate for our out of town traveling next race season. What do you all think would be a fair price to ask for the truck?

xx_ED_xx
11-16-2008, 05:50 PM
I dont know but let us know if you decide to sell the blower

xx_ED_xx
11-16-2008, 05:51 PM
hell pauly tell em l29 or l31 and you get about the same look

Pauly
11-17-2008, 04:46 PM
===========================

PAuly---

Thanks for the post...you have most of it right, however the VINs are wrong that you quoted. My L-21 has a "B" in the VIN, no "D"...most of the "kids" at the Auto Parts counters get that "deer in the headlights" look when I tell them it's a L-21..LOL..

Steady Eddie
Thats the short list I have found, I cant refind the longer more complete list. I didnt complile the above list. I found it on Ebay IIRC.

I have seen your post on the other forum. That VIN was handy. Thanks.

peace
PAuly

Steady Eddie
11-17-2008, 08:00 PM
Thats the short list I have found, I cant refind the longer more complete list. I didnt complile the above list. I found it on Ebay IIRC.

I have seen your post on the other forum. That VIN was handy. Thanks.

peace
PAuly

PAuly--

The deal is, now days, when you go to buy parts (even at the Chevy Stealership), the Parts Counter Folks "want" a VIN. Anymore, I don't even attempt it without a copy of the VIN.

Steady Eddie

Pauly
11-17-2008, 09:42 PM
PAuly--

The deal is, now days, when you go to buy parts (even at the Chevy Stealership), the Parts Counter Folks "want" a VIN. Anymore, I don't even attempt it without a copy of the VIN.

Steady Eddie
I hear ya. I went to teh STEALERSHIP to get a fuel pump. I said, 1997 350, 2wd reg can shortbox. 20 differnt pump PN's came up. They promptly asked for the VIN.lol

peace
PAuly

bankspowered98
11-18-2008, 05:45 AM
Alright, I decided to take the supercharger off and sell it seperate from the truck. The sale will come with everything that was on mine. When I say everything, I mean the following:

Supercharger
6lb and 9lb pulley
6 rib belt
tensior and all brackets
water pump pulley
crank pulley
whipple computer
MSD boost a pump
Pillar (contains boost,pyro,trans temp) autometer ultra lites
Air intake elbow

I'm open to the highest offer. Once it is decided I will start pulling the setup off. Thanks Guys!

dietzster
11-18-2008, 11:23 PM
Hey you promised me first dibs!! Remember posts #713 an #714! lol. What are you looking to get for it, I'm still interested.

bankspowered98
11-19-2008, 05:14 AM
Actually, I completely remember that and you DO have first dibs. haha. Just PM me an offer and we can go from there.
Thanks

James B.
11-22-2008, 05:23 PM
I put an L29 into my Tahoe last year when the snout broke off the HT383. The one in the truck now is still stock. I have a second L29 on the stand in the garage I am building an intercooled Whipple W210R kit for.
I run Siemens 63# injectors in mine with an external Aeromotive Fuel Pressure regulator calibrated to a baseline of 3 BAR instead of the factory 4 BAR. (Fuel system built in preparation for boost.)
Here's a current photo:
http://bertok.us/pics/FPR1.jpg

I programmed it, and I run 91 octane and a 180 degree thermostat.
Video:
http://bertok.us/pics/454stock0-60.avi (14MB)

Here's the one on the stand:
http://bertok.us/pics/altbracket.jpg

xx_ED_xx
11-23-2008, 08:07 AM
Damn them l21's are sexy like a cross between an 8.1 and an l29

99bigunit
11-23-2008, 12:54 PM
I am new to this forum, but was turned on to this site by NODIH over on the EFILive forum. This post has some of the most interesting material I have seen on our trucks. I have a '99 K3500,CCLB,DRW,&L29. I have always used this truck for hauling and it has always got the job done, but now I am looking to wake the beast a little. I still will be pulling a 13k# fifth wheel as well as other trailer loads of equipment.I guess the obvious upgrades are headers, exhaust, and cam. My question is there is a little confusion on my behalf regarding the use of the '99-'00 LS1 injectors. If I do these improvements in stages will the LS1 injectors support this with out flowing too much at 4 bar? I will be tuning the engine as I go. However, is this injector the best choice, because I have the oppurtunity to pick some up for a fair price?

Smith97_454
11-23-2008, 08:40 PM
I am new to this forum, but was turned on to this site by NODIH over on the EFILive forum. This post has some of the most interesting material I have seen on our trucks. I have a '99 K3500,CCLB,DRW,&L29. I have always used this truck for hauling and it has always got the job done, but now I am looking to wake the beast a little. I still will be pulling a 13k# fifth wheel as well as other trailer loads of equipment.I guess the obvious upgrades are headers, exhaust, and cam. My question is there is a little confusion on my behalf regarding the use of the '99-'00 LS1 injectors. If I do these improvements in stages will the LS1 injectors support this with out flowing too much at 4 bar? I will be tuning the engine as I go. However, is this injector the best choice, because I have the oppurtunity to pick some up for a fair price?
I picked up a set of L67's by NODIH's reccomendation. Should be able to tune the truck for them althought they are 36# injectors

N0DIH
11-23-2008, 08:56 PM
Cool, I will be near Ohio the week after thanksgiving, but unfortunately won't be able to stop (wish I could!), will be pulling a trailer to Florida for my Grandmother who is moving in with my mom and dad. Starting from Grand Rapids, MI on the 30th of Nov, hopefully arriving in Palm Bay, FL on Dec 2....and then back to West of Chicagoland on the 5th or so....


I picked up a set of L67's by NODIH's reccomendation. Should be able to tune the truck for them althought they are 36# injectors

Steady Eddie
11-24-2008, 09:17 AM
Damn them l21's are sexy like a cross between an 8.1 and an l29
=============================
Yes, the entire Chassis Package (the P-12) is awesome. Many "firsts" were offered. First all metric Chassis. It was the first MH Chassis with Tapered
Parabolic Leaf springs, over 9" of shock travel, front and rear.
It has a factory lowering kit/set-up on it with a double drop front I-beam axle (8500#) and a set of lowering blocks on the rear axle (13,500#). Kodiaks and TopKicks have it also, today they call it the Low Pro option.

Steady Eddie

N0DIH
11-24-2008, 09:28 AM
Knew talking about the P12 and L21 would get you out of the woodwork!! Do you have a VIN for you chassis you can PM me, I wanna see what it would take to get a definition to tune the L21's and the stock PCM....


=============================
Yes, the entire Chassis Package (the P-12) is awesome.Many "firsts" were offered. It was the first MH Chassis with Tapered
Parabolic Leaf springs, over 9" of shock travel, front and rear.
It has a factory lowering kit/set-up on it with a double drop front axle (8500#) and a set of lowering blocks on the rear axle (13,500#). Kodiaks ans TopKicks have it also, today they call it the Low Pro option.

Steady Eddie

Steady Eddie
11-24-2008, 09:54 AM
Tom--

Yes I do have a VIN for you..but the Coach is over in storage, and I have to go fetch it..will send you a PM off this site...

Steady Eddie
11-24-2008, 12:09 PM
Tom--

Yes I do have a VIN for you..but the Coach is over in storage, and I have to go fetch it..will sent you a PM off this site...

Tom--

PM is sent..I gave you the VIN off my build sheet...

PullinCrazy88
11-24-2008, 06:19 PM
hey guys im pretty sure i have an L29 but i am still wondering if im right. the truck is a 2000 and the engine vin is J.

N0DIH
11-24-2008, 10:53 PM
Yup, J's are L29's, no L21's were put in the C/K chassis. They are like 290 hp and 405 lb/ft for some reason.


hey guys im pretty sure i have an L29 but i am still wondering if im right. the truck is a 2000 and the engine vin is J.

N0DIH
11-24-2008, 10:53 PM
Got it, I will see what I can come up with!



Tom--

PM is sent..I gave you the VIN off my build sheet...

Steady Eddie
11-25-2008, 06:48 AM
Yup, J's are L29's, no L21's were put in the C/K chassis. They are like 290 hp and 405 lb/ft for some reason.
=================================
Back when the L-21 was new, the GM Powertrain Group found themselves in the middle of a huge problem. On the one hand, they created a Frankenstein-ish torque monster of an engine with the L-21, and on the other hand they were handcuffed by having to back it up with the old 4-speed, 100% Hydro 4-speed Allison AT-540
Series transmission. The transmission contains NO electronics, save for the VSS speedo drive in the tailshaft. The very fact that they were expected to be able to even MOVE 26,000# was a big job.
The Allison is rated at over 30,000# of GVW. This transmission was the best they could do at the time. It is a mixed marriage of engine and trans at best. Maximum input RPMs, using the smallest of the three torque converters available, is 4000 RPMs.
After that RPM the hydro pumps will cavitate (sp) and lose their collective minds. The engineers DID come up with a special one-of-a-kind valve body, which moves the "normal" Cat Diesel shift points from 1700 RPMs up to a Gas Engine's rating of 2600 RPMs, which means in everyday driving the upshift to 2nd. never happens until about 26 MPH. It gets interesting in a 25 MPH speed zone, roaring along at 25 MPH, waiting for an upshift!! The transmission contains its' very own mechanical governor, where it (the transmission) "lets go" at a specific RPM. I have run up against it many times. Because this internal
transmission governor is mechanical the input setpoint RPM varies somewhat, and the most I have been able to "get out of it" is about 4100 RPMs (indicated), but it IS pretty close to 4000 RPMs. There are several MORE governed speed limits, also, ones that you are more apt to know. One is "Maximum Road Speed",
which is based on the Speed Rating of the OE tires--78 MPH.
Another one is "Maximum Engine RPMs", and this one comes into play on downshifts from 4th. (High) gear to Third only, where the L-21 drops right "onto" an indicated 3500 RPMs. It's setting is supposed to be 3750 RPMs, so it is off a bit. Now, just "how" the brainbox "knows" which gear it is in (remember that the trans is all hydro/mechanical) I do not know. In any event, should the road speed RPMs drop further (lugs down) to
the downshift point of going from 3rd. to 2nd. then all bets are off and the RPMs will sky upwards to the Maximum input revs.
The Maximum RPMs allowed in the "Limp Home" mode are 3000. This is yet ANOTHER governor and I have ran "into" it a few times. Should the engine overheat, it'll "limp". The parameters for going into "limp" I am still discovering. I found one on our recent 3200 mile trip: At very high altitudes (thin air) where the barometric pressure is low, and when towing heavy at WFO in 2nd. gear, it will "limp". It will maintain 3000 RPMs, period, and that is all it'll do. It does this in thin air, when under a heavy load. Once down at a lower altitude, all is fine.

These are all "save the drivetrain" RPM and Torque limits, designed to give the L-21/P-12 a very long life. And should a "tuner" ignore them, or not know about them and eliminate them, then things begin to break quickly.

It is a chaining down of the Monster....

99bigunit
11-25-2008, 08:02 AM
I have a question for you guys that are running a transgo HD2 kit in these 4L80e trannies. Do you like the results/is it worth doing? and was it difficult to do? I am not real advanced in my understanding of trannies, but am fairly mechanically inclined. I would like to do this before I get it tuned, so that I can remove some TM and adjust shift points. This is my daily driver (except in the warmer months when I ride the Harley) and I also do a fair amount of towing with the 454.

Steady Eddie
11-25-2008, 08:31 AM
I have a question for you guys that are running a transgo HD2 kit in these 4L80e trannies. Do you like the results/is it worth doing? and was it difficult to do? I am not real advanced in my understanding of trannies, but am fairly mechanically inclined. I would like to do this before I get it tuned, so that I can remove some TM and adjust shift points. This is my daily driver (except in the warmer months when I ride the Harley) and I also do a fair amount of towing with the 454.
================================
big unit---

The 4L80e is designed to handle 8000# of CGVW. This equal to the weight of the vehicle and the combined weight of whatever it is you are towing. A total of 8000#. With a 6000# truck, you run out of "room" very quickly. My 16 foot car hauler weighs 1300# empty. 6000# truck + 1300# trailer = 7300# Safely, that means, using that example, you could tow a car on that trailer, that weighed 700#, before you begin to overload the transmission. The trans-go kit will not change this basic fact.

Then, toss in a "tune", and the torque output jumps up towards the maximum allowable 440 ft. lbs, along with the elimination of TM (that is now protecting the transmission) and you are looking transmission failure right in the eyes.

JMHO.

99bigunit
11-25-2008, 10:36 AM
Using that theory it seems that no one should be towing 13000# fifth wheel campers/trailers at all. The reason most people have 1 ton duallies is for towing heavy loads. I have been pulling a 13k# fifth wheel for years now and have 112,xxx on the odometer and have yet to have any problems with the transmission, I would just like to improve this towing performance if possible with some upgrades.

Hatfieco
11-25-2008, 12:16 PM
I agree with big unit. I have had several 4l80e trucks and my last was a 6.5l TD peninsular built and was over 500lb ft of torque. Had no problems what so ever. Take your truck to a good tranny shop and have them change it from a pulsating to a non pulsating module and you will notice a big difference. I for one am not a fan of those pop in and go shift kits. But as for overloading the tranny all the time mine probably never knew what regular loading was and 140k later it was still shifting great and towin like a madman.

Onlychevy6
11-25-2008, 12:58 PM
I have a few questions? i have a 98 K2500 454. All stock with the exception of a K&N filter. So it looks like after reading a ton of these post, getting the computer reprogrammed is the best thing to do. I actually have a factory dual exhaust. has anyone used the magna flow free flowing cat. conv. and exhaust? If so how do you like it? 2nd on the lower intake when the manifold was taken off to replace the intake manifold gaskets we found that the manifold was badly pitted. It was cleaned up and had so epoxy putty for aluminum on it to make it so the gasket will not leak. Where can one find a new lower intake manifold. nobody seems to have them. Even called the dealer and they said they are not offered anymore.

oh and has anyone had the problem of getting rid of the code that says the cam and crank sensor is not lined up? Mine won't go away and everything is dead on. I had the factory check to make sure.

Thanks in advance.

Steady Eddie
11-25-2008, 01:39 PM
Using that theory it seems that no one should be towing 13000# fifth wheel campers/trailers at all. The reason most people have 1 ton duallies is for towing heavy loads. I have been pulling a 13k# fifth wheel for years now and have 112,xxx on the odometer and have yet to have any problems with the transmission, I would just like to improve this towing performance if possible with some upgrades.
===========================================

B.U.---

I did not say that this engine/trans combo would not do it, as I see huge fifth-wheels being pulled behind them on every time out, in campgrounds from Washington State to Arizona. However, knowing what the rig is rated for, is a good thing. I am happy that your rig has worked well for you AND Member Hatfieco and that the module mod works well...

xx_ED_xx
11-25-2008, 03:43 PM
Curious What would it take to convert and l29 to an l21? Pcm wiring and distrubutor cover. ls1 coils?

Pauly
11-25-2008, 04:41 PM
Curious What would it take to convert and l29 to an l21? Pcm wiring and distrubutor cover. ls1 coils?

You dont even need the cover, its just an L29 distribueter with a flat cap. You could use teh crab capo if you HAD too. Just take teh rotor out. teh stock dist is used ofr its 1x camshaft position sensor.
Go back a few posts I posted the links for the conversion.

The L21 basically is an L29 454 that thinks its an overgrown Corvette LS1 complete with CNP and electronic throttle.
The special part of the L21, is the forged guts inside the L21.
The ignition is standard LS1 corvette, you can use ANY CNP coils you wish, vette, F-body, 4.8/5.3/6.0 trucks or LS2 coils etc etc.

There are a few L21 parts that you cant get from GM anymore. Most L21 parts are available at NAPA/UAP. Its too bad the GM doesnt support ALL the L21 parts anymore.

I have a few interesting L21 parts/files/calibration info.

You will NOT be able to use a Vortec 1996-2000 black box PCM for this CNP ignition.

peace
PAuly

Pauly
11-25-2008, 04:56 PM
Take your truck to a good tranny shop and have them change it from a pulsating to a non pulsating module and you will notice a big difference. You will only notice a difference when the Torque converter clucth engages, the shifts will remain the same.
if you noticed a change in actual gear changes, the trans shop installed 1 of those bolt in and go shift kits.
These shift kits are the same kits that almost all trans shops use.
The Trans Go shift kits(as well as other makes of shift kits) are what trans shops install.

Shift kits only help to prevent slippage, they dontmake anything iside teh trans stronger. You need to install hard parts to accomplish that.

L21/29 7.4 290 hp 405/410 lb/ft torque
L19 8.1 340-350hp 455 lb/ft torque.


peace
PAuly

N0DIH
11-25-2008, 05:02 PM
Time for that 0411 swap eh? I gotta do that one of these days! Going down to Florida here, wonder if I could pull it off before Sunday!


...
You will NOT be able to use a Vortec 1996-2000 black box PCM for this CNP ignition.

peace
PAuly

Pauly
11-25-2008, 05:33 PM
The 411 swap takes about 3 hrs. Lotsa time lol.

peace
Pauly

Steady Eddie
11-25-2008, 05:50 PM
PAuly--

Do you know, for sure, if the L-21 has a reverse flow cooling system, like a Police Caprice?? I know it has some goofy coolant hose runs, and a surge tank instead of an overflow tank on the radiator??

Steady Eddie

N0DIH
11-25-2008, 05:55 PM
Got pictures? I honestly doubt it, the LT1/L99's were quite unique. Water pump all different, front cover all different, heads different, much higher compression (10:1 on low octane iron headed engine (B/D body full size car engine), and 10.5 on alum headed Y/F body Vette/Z28/TA engine)

Being GM got sued bad for it, doubt it would come back, but the LS1 did look like it was possible to do it, but never got it.


PAuly--

Do you know, for sure, if the L-21 has a reverse flow cooling system, like a Police Caprice?? I know it has some goofy coolant hose runs, and a surge tank instead of an overflow tank on the radiator??

Steady Eddie

Steady Eddie
11-25-2008, 06:11 PM
Tom--

I attempted to send you a PM, but the Forum here came back and said that your Inbox was full ?

Anyway, you cannot change the shift points by re-programming, as the AT-540 Series are all 100% Hydro/Mechanical. No electronics.

Steady Eddie

N0DIH
11-25-2008, 06:13 PM
Ahh, cool, fixed inbox.... Didn't think any were still the old fashioned way! Get out the springs and weights!


Tom--

I attempted to send you a PM, but the Forum here came back and said that your Inbox was full ?

Anyway, you cannot change the shift points by re-programming, as the AT-540 Series are all 100% Hydro/Mechanical. No electronics.

Steady Eddie

Steady Eddie
11-25-2008, 06:26 PM
Yep, when Chevy was developing the P-12 Chassis, there was a serious shortage of the then new 5-spd Allisons. They had to go with what they had available--the old At-540.

How can one "get around" the internal pumps cavitation at 400O RPMs?? It might be possible to simply disconnect the mechanical governor, but the pump issue remains.

Steady Eddie

xx_ED_xx
11-25-2008, 06:46 PM
pauly pm me. YEs see i have an 04 silverado. I think i may be able to use my pcm. I am currently running it with a ram jet pcm or mefi 3 for those unfamilar with it. If i dont sell the motor I may consider doing this. It would be nice to have sequential injection plus real time tuneability. The uploads on the mefi are so god damn slow for minute changes

Steady Eddie
11-26-2008, 08:48 AM
Tom---

Your L-21 entry at Wiki is still incorrect. Workhorse Chassis never had a L-21 454. To the best of my knowledge, they were all the 8.1 L light-duty engines with the cast crankshaft. They also never had a P-21 Chassis, that I know of. The big Workhorse Chassis is a clone of the Chevy P-12 Chassis as Workhorse never got that design when they bought the P-32 Chassis line from Chevy.
The Workhorse W-20 Chassis is almost a dead ringer for the Chevy P-12.

Steady Eddie

N0DIH
11-26-2008, 09:09 AM
Cool, will update, thanks!


Tom---

Your L-21 entry at Wiki is still incorrect. Workhorse Chassis never had a L-21 454. To the best of my knowledge, they were all the 8.1 L light-duty engines with the cast crankshaft. They also never had a P-21 Chassis, that I know of. The big Workhorse Chassis is a clone of the Chevy P-12 Chassis as Workhorse never got that design when they bought the P-32 Chassis line from Chevy.
The Workhorse W-20 Chassis is almost a dead ringer for the Chevy P-12.

Steady Eddie

Steady Eddie
11-26-2008, 09:24 AM
Tom--

Now that you have my P-12s VIN, does that mean that that you can use your reference sources and look right at the code??

N0DIH
11-26-2008, 09:33 AM
Yup! Hope to have it today!

Steady Eddie
11-26-2008, 09:49 AM
Tom--

Good deal!! I have been curious about certain parameters inside it...ones that would not throw a code or set the SES light, and ones that would cause me to become an instant pedestrian or have to call the (BIG) tow truck...LOL

Steady Eddie

98valkyrie
11-26-2008, 10:08 AM
Add me to the list guys. I have been viewing and taking in all the info here for several months. I have a 97 ECLB 2500 GMC with the 454 and 4.10's. It is a daily driver. I also pull a 15000 # 34' fifth wheel with it. I work on construction projects out of town and that is home most of the time. I am at my real home now and have a chance to get caught up on some issues I'm having. I'm in the process right now of changing out the intake gasket as I have had a coolant leak since I picked up the truck a year ago. Bought it with 78k and now have 90k on the clock. Have a K&N CAI and will be getting a Magnaflow Cat back single side out in the next couple weeks.
As I am involved with the intake gasket replacment, I am changing the rotor and cap as well as plugs and wires. Should I change the FPR since I am back in that area?
We REALLY need a seperate forum for these beasts on FSC.
:fsc:

Steady Eddie
11-26-2008, 10:14 AM
Should anyone be interested: There is a P-12/L-21 for sale on eBay.
Item # 280287806568

Super low miles and the guy selling it thinks it has a V-10 Triton engine in it!!

Steady Eddie

xx_ED_xx
11-26-2008, 03:23 PM
I also have GM service information access if anything is needed

Pauly
11-26-2008, 03:53 PM
Yep, when Chevy was developing the P-12 Chassis, there was a serious shortage of the then new 5-spd Allisons. They had to go with what they had available--the old At-540.

How can one "get around" the internal pumps cavitation at 400O RPMs?? It might be possible to simply disconnect the mechanical governor, but the pump issue remains.

Steady Eddie
hey Eddie, are you looking to rev over 4000rpms?

peace
Pauly

xx_ED_xx
11-26-2008, 06:17 PM
pauly empty your message box...

Steady Eddie
11-26-2008, 06:49 PM
hey Eddie, are you looking to rev over 4000rpms?

peace
Pauly
============================

PAuly---

No, there are some weird noises (expensive sounding) that begin at or near 4000 RPMs. A kind of vibration in the floor that happens when the Allison's pumps begin to cavitate (sp?) and the mechanical
Allison governor begins its work. I already have about 6 grand tied up in the new trans and am not looking to do THAT again, anytime soon...it (going beyond 4K RPMs) is a moot point as the L-21 makes its' most power at 3200 RPMs.

My comments about the 4K rev limit of the trans was to underscore but one of the limitations of this powertrain.

I am REALLY looking forward to finding out what Tom finds in the code...

xx_ED_xx
11-26-2008, 06:51 PM
What code?

Steady Eddie
11-26-2008, 06:59 PM
What code?
=========================
Perhaps I mis-spoke..the "code" is what I ignorantly call the PCM programming...LOL...one of the things I'm wondering about is the timer setting of the Power Enrichment Circuit..feels to me like about one whole minute, before it kicks in...

xx_ED_xx
11-26-2008, 07:00 PM
OH you mean the pcm "tune" for your particular setup

Steady Eddie
11-26-2008, 07:02 PM
OH you mean the pcm "tune" for your particular setup
===========================
Yep--you got it, only the Original Equipment stuff, as most "tuners" haven't a clue...

Pauly
11-26-2008, 09:17 PM
I do know that the L29's PE mode timer is set to 60 seconds stock. But there is also a Bypass PE Mode Timer RPM that will allow PE mode to be entered whenever that certain rpm is attained.

The L21 tune will be very similar to an L29 tune in many cases. There will obviously be differences(timing, but since the heads/cam/intake manifold/injectors are the same, it wont be hugely different.

In all reality, an L21 is L29 with forged crank/pistons ETC and CNP.

PM box emptied
peace
PAuly

Pauly
11-26-2008, 09:17 PM
I do know that the L29's PE mode timer is set to 60 seconds stock. But there is also a Bypass PE Mode Timer RPM that will allow PE mode to be entered whenever that certain rpm is attained.

The L21 tune will be very similar to an L29 tune in many cases. There will obviously be differences(timing, but since the heads/cam/intake manifold/injectors are the same, it wont be hugely different.

In all reality, an L21 is an L29 with forged crank/pistons ETC and CNP.

peace
PAuly

Steady Eddie
11-26-2008, 09:56 PM
I do know that the L29's PE mode timer is set to 60 seconds stock. But there is also a Bypass PE Mode Timer RPM that will allow PE mode to be entered whenever that certain rpm is attained.

The L21 tune will be very similar to an L29 tune in many cases. There will obviously be differences(timing, but since the heads/cam/intake manifold/injectors are the same, it wont be hugely different.

In all reality, an L21 is an L29 with forged crank/pistons ETC and CNP.

peace
PAuly
================================

There is a point in time, when towing heavy, loaded down, on a 6% grade, when the L-21 is "down and grunting" in third gear. pulling for all it is worth, up against the RPM limiter at 3500 RPMs, when--as if by magic--there appears a burst of power, like a passing gear almost. The indicated RPMs remain constant, but the road speed increases---and the engine begins to sing in full song. It literally gives me chills to type this. Few people alive have ever experienced it. Extended, SPFI, 454 BB full song.

What is it??

Pauly
11-26-2008, 10:08 PM
================================

There is a point in time, when towing heavy, loaded down, on a 6% grade, when the L-21 is "down and grunting" in third gear. pulling for all it is worth, up against the RPM limiter at 3500 RPMs, when--as if by magic--there appears a burst of power, like a passing gear almost. The indicated RPMs remain constant, but the road speed increases---and the engine begins to sing in full song. It literally gives me chills to type this. Few people alive have ever experienced it. Extended, SPFI, 454 BB full song.

What is it??
Could very well be that the delay rpm is set higher than is ever acheieved so then all of a sudden you enter PE mode.

It will be very interesting indeed.

Those big blocks sure do have a music all there own.

peace
Pauly

Steady Eddie
11-26-2008, 10:20 PM
Those big blocks sure do have a music all there own.
===============================

The singing is quite pronounced and also occurs right at 3200 RPMs in high gear on the flats. So much so that my DW often wakes up and asks me if I am "bombing" down the freeway. The only correlation that I have is that at 3200 is the point of peak power output. The singing enters your mind and body and plants a big old grin on your face...:biggrin:..like this.

N0DIH
11-27-2008, 10:28 AM
Explain to her that the peak mpg (lowest BSFC) is at peak torque so if peak torque is 3200, then by all means, cruise there... :)


Those big blocks sure do have a music all there own.
===============================

The singing is quite pronounced and also occurs right at 3200 RPMs in high gear on the flats. So much so that my DW often wakes up and asks me if I am "bombing" down the freeway. The only correlation that I have is that at 3200 is the point of peak power output. The singing enters your mind and body and plants a big old grin on your face...:biggrin:..like this.

Steady Eddie
11-27-2008, 12:27 PM
Explain to her that the peak mpg (lowest BSFC) is at peak torque so if peak torque is 3200, then by all means, cruise there... :)
==================================

Tom--

I have over 60 feet of rolling stock when towing, it is a real world limitation, so I usually get in line behind and with the 18-wheelers, which travel I-5 at about 62 MPH. That equals about 3000 RPMs or 200 LESS than when the L-21 blossoms into full song. It is a much more pleasant and safer trip just to stay in line and go with the flow and not be running faster and have to pull out and pass.

Brake Specific Fuel Consumption doesn't enter into it, while cruising along. I am pretty close though and it shows just how close the Engineers came to peak MPG at speed, with the 19.5 tires and the 4.78 to 1 rear gear.

BFSC is a confusing topic as common sense says less RPMs = greater fuel economy.. (?)

rckymtn454
11-29-2008, 09:47 AM
Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. While driving to the inlaws thursday i noticed my muffler started getting noisy, it's time for new exhaust. The previous owner installed somekind of dual in dual out muffler, what do you guys recommend for exhaust? Is true duals and gutted cats the way to go or dual into single? I prefer a kit so i can do it myself.
Thanks all

PullinCrazy88
11-29-2008, 10:40 AM
heres some good info on exhaust that Tom left me on a thread. im also putting exhaust on mine and it helped me deside on what would be good.

I think its "politically incorrect" to say free flowing and enough back pressure in the same sentence.

A correctly assemble engine combonation will not want ANY back pressure; it is counter productive to any "air pump".
When is back pressure beenificial?
1. incorrect cam choice
2. incorrect header/exghaust sizing choice
3. incorrect placement of cats.
If you over size the exhaust too much adding back pressure will cause the wave pulse to arrive at the valve in approximate time again; maybe, if you are lucky.
If you choose an exhaust that is too big, your cat will not reach operating temp, so adding back pressure will help heat it up.
Your exhaust should just be large enough in diameter to suport peak HP if thats what your shooting for. Or just large enough to suport a little past peak torque for increase torque below torque peak for everyday driving economy increase.
The exhaust should be mandrel bent and as straight as possible. A properly sized exhaust will give more "usable" power, not just peak power, with little if any back pressure.
It is almost impossible to OVER scavange a STOCK Naturally aspirated Low performance(mass produced) Chevy because the Lobe Seperation Angle is spread too far apart or to be even more acurate the Valve Overlap is next to zero.
You can have a free flowing LARGE exhaust and make LESS average HP, why? because you have changed when the wave comes back in time with the closing of the exhaust valve. when the exhaust gets larger in diameter the wave slows down. if it arrives at the valve when it is still open it will push some of the exhaust back in and cause the engine to loose HP or feel lazy because the next combustion charge will be diluted with exhaust; an unintensional EGR effect.
But then you need to throw in the length of the exhaust too, and don't forget the bends.
I like to use the smallest diameter exhaust with the least amount of back pressure, that matches the RPM band I am going to use . This tends to bump up more torque in the low to mid range and gives better gas milage if you spend most of your time there.
There is WAY more to "tuned" exhaust than I know, but would like to know, LOL. Thermal dynamics comes into play when you are tuning; not that its not already coming into play. But thermal losses also slow down the wave.....The variables never end.
I have babbled on WAY too long

Just remeber this:
High velocity/no back pressure(.5 PSI or less) at Peak HP, will 9.9 times out of 10 give more AVERAGE HP than Low velocity/some back pressure(too large with restriction from wrinkled bends or muffler) exhaust system.

Tom.

rckymtn454
11-29-2008, 11:20 AM
Thanks thats alot of info, but i was wondering what everyone else has had luck with.

Steady Eddie
11-29-2008, 04:04 PM
Thanks thats alot of info, but i was wondering what everyone else has had luck with.
===============================
Rocky---

Here's a link that explains a lot:

http://www.isuzuperformance.com/isupage/tech/exhaust.html

It is primarily aimed at the Ricer Crowd, and you must read it with an open mind, shifting the info contained over to a BB application. It explains mandrel bends vs. pinch bends, 4-into-1 vs. Tri-Y-s, single tailpipes vs. duals, and why gutting a cat is not a good idea.

I had to get a new cat installed on my BB L-21 and discovered the Muffler Shop Guy wringing his hands, thinking about how he could "soak" me for a free-flow $800 exhaust system, over the "restrictive" OE silent system..like Tom, I said no thank you....

My BB has 3" Primary pipes, into two cats (one for each cylinder bank) that are also 3" in-and-out..from there they taper down to 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 inch pipes (two of them), and into one of the biggest round truck mufflers you have ever seen. There is a single outlet pipe, from the muffler, the tailpipe, that is a three inch diameter, which exits behind the driver's side rear duals..the entire system is OE 304 stainless steel, including the 750-dollar "garbage can sized" muffler. Given the very high torque at low RPMs output of the L-21, I believe the OE systems are best...

Pauly
11-30-2008, 01:57 PM
All the 2500HD truck from 2001+ have dual 3" exhaust from the manifolds to the dual in single out muffler, including cats, both 364(6.0) and 496(8.1)engines.

In my experience stock mufflers are restrictive. There are many chambers/resonators inside that simply do not flow well. They are designed to be silent, not necessarily flow well.

And yes those mufflers on the motorhomes/ trucks(class 7-8 trucks) are huge. I used to install them on the asssembly line.

peace
PAuly

rckymtn454
11-30-2008, 08:24 PM
Thanks for the info guys, i would like to find a kit that goes 2 into a 3' single out the side, i can't stand hooking up a trailer while the truck s running with the duals out the back. Anybody use something similar.

Steady Eddie
11-30-2008, 08:49 PM
Rocky--

I used a "like that" cat back on my old 1993 Z-71 Short Wide.

It was not a kit, however. Once I crawled under it, I found a set of two primary pipes of 3" diameter, blended into a single 3" pipe going into the cat, and out with a 2 1/2" into the OE Muffler. Out of that was a single tail pipe, of 2 1/2", which ended just behind the rear wheel.

I bought a 3" IN/3" OUT Flowmaster 3-chamber muffler for 89 bucks.
I hacksawed the OE muffler off at the transition pipe right behind the cat, where the cat's outlet was 3" diameter. I then temporarily
U-bolted the Flowmaster on. And I drove it downtown to the Muffler Shop. I explained that I wanted a 3" tailpipe bent up and over the rear axle, to exit behind the rear wheel and I wanted him to use the OE hangers and weld everything up. I removed the temporary U-bolt, right in the Shop, while the rig was up in the air. Total Shop cost--73 bucks.

I got a three inch cat-back exhaust system for less than $200.

xx_ED_xx
11-30-2008, 08:52 PM
I got a free 3.5 single in and out D max exhaust. Made some modifications to it so it would work with factory parts. And thats whats on my truck now. You can hear it in my project post

marine big block adventure

PullinCrazy88
12-01-2008, 05:23 PM
now that is one hell of an idea. they want to junk there stock exhaust of diesel truck. get a different muffler and u have all the pipe u need, genious in my book.:cheer:

xx_ED_xx
12-02-2008, 04:30 PM
Pictures of an L21 crank reluctor
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/6/24/85643/DSC00842.JPG
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/6/24/85643/DSC00843.JPG
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/6/24/85643/DSC00844.JPG

Steady Eddie
12-03-2008, 09:38 AM
xx-Ed----

Great pics of a part that few have ever seen. The Crank Position Sensor that "reads" this wheel is a known bad player, prone to failure, and one that will leave you stranded alongside the road.
I have it on my list of L-21 parts to buy...the sensor is, IIRC, held in place by a single bolt. My plan is to special order the sensor, and put it and the tools to change it, in a gallon-sized zip lock bag, and carry it with me. Chances are very slim that, while on the road, any Stealership would have one in stock. I could be stranded for days...BTW--the crank position sensor was re-located in the 8.1 L "new" light duty BB..it now sits down in a hole and is long and skinny, up by the back of the 8.1..its' housing is made of plastic and (horror) it often breaks off, down in the block, upon removal. Then, should that breakage happen, the bloody stub has to be dug out of the engine!!! I much prefer a crank position sensor that I can get out, and only has a single bolt that I can remove and replace, using blue Lok-tite. At least that will get me back up and running, maybe only (Tom?) in The Limp Mode, until I can get to a Garage and have the crank learn done to it, using a Tech tool scanner.

Steady Eddie
12-03-2008, 10:09 AM
All the 2500HD truck from 2001+ have dual 3" exhaust from the manifolds to the dual in single out muffler, including cats, both 364(6.0) and 496(8.1)engines.

In my experience stock mufflers are restrictive. There are many chambers/resonators inside that simply do not flow well. They are designed to be silent, not necessarily flow well.

And yes those mufflers on the motorhomes/ trucks(class 7-8 trucks) are huge. I used to install them on the asssembly line.

peace
PAuly

PAuly--

I see by your sig line that you live just across from Detroit, in Canada, eh? Did you work at the birthplace of the P-12 in Detroit? At the old GMC Bus Plant??

BTW, the P-12/L-21 is a true Class 6 truck, one step higher up, to a Class 7, and in my State, you must have CDL license to be able to drive it. 26,000# CGVWR is the break point.

Pauly
12-03-2008, 01:42 PM
No i never worked in Detroit directly. I wokred in many different capacities a a Freightliner assembly plant in St Thomas Ontario. This was a few yeras ago now, and I just heard a couple weeks ago the plant is closing in Feb, to be moved to Mexico.

I have seen those L19 8.1L bigblock CKP sensors, they sure are long.
The National Highway Transpotation Feds in the US forced GM to recall the 2001 8.1 trucks, as the CMP and CKP sensors could fail causing the engine to stall and possibly cause a crash.

http://forums.startsampling.com/archive/index.php/t-8768.html

I dont see why GM doesnt use the 24x reluctor Ed posted pics of, then use the 8.1 1x reluctor/CMP sensor. Some sort of 8.1/L21/29 combo front timing cover, then drive the oil pump some other way.

The only way you can get a big block in a vehicle now is to get a truck larger than 1ton. In LRW power package ratings of 325hp@4000rpm/450@2800lb/ft or LRZ power package ratings of 295hp@3600rpm/440 lb/ft torque@3200rpm.


peace
Pauly

StreetGliderX
12-03-2008, 04:50 PM
hey fellas my 98 K3500 454 is gettin pretty weak.... and she is using alittle water along thanks to a bad head gasket.... so since i am gonna tear it down anyhow what can i do to make this thing a tourqe monster? its got a steel bed on it with my rig and weighs roughly 14k loaded... she is a 5 speed 4.10 rear and trans was redone about a year ago.... i need it to be reliable but strong enough to pull her self around...its my money maker so i dont need NHRA drag power i just want to wake ole bessie up

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t247/BrandilynLeigh/Lee/100_2180.jpghttp://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t247/BrandilynLeigh/Lee/100_2179.jpg

Steady Eddie
12-03-2008, 10:58 PM
http://pacificp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58888&sid=e8fd7c5d30367c4e1f93259cdc68307f-

Go to Page One and read the whole 3 pages..:daddy: