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View Full Version : 96 to 97+ 4L60E Differences?



cooker2003
06-08-2006, 10:40 PM
What are the differences between the pre-97 and 97+ 4L60E transmissions?? I ordered a B&M Tork Master 2400 converter, but it only gives years of 93-96. It is the same transmission, what is the difference??

cooker2003
06-09-2006, 10:35 PM
Need some input on this guys. Thanks.

N0DIH
06-09-2006, 11:29 PM
1996 was the first year of the 4L60E trans. 1995 was the 4L60 (non E). The E is the full electronic controlled version. I think in 1997 it got PWM controlled torque converter. I don't know 100% for sure, but lurk around the Impala SS Boards for Shane, he runs a highly repected 4L60 trans shop, Caroline Performance Trans (http://www.cpt4l60e.com/). He will gladly answer questions, and it VERY knowledgeable.

I have talked to him about my trans, and I do feel he is very trustworthy and he is well respected on the Impala circles.

He can give you a detailed history. Check his website, lots of good info on there too.

SierraSLT
06-09-2006, 11:55 PM
1996 was the first year of the 4L60E trans. 1995 was the 4L60 (non E). The E is the full electronic controlled version. I think in 1997 it got PWM controlled torque converter. I don't know 100% for sure, but lurk around the Impala SS Boards for Shane, he runs a highly repected 4L60 trans shop, Caroline Performance Trans (http://www.cpt4l60e.com/). He will gladly answer questions, and it VERY knowledgeable.

I have talked to him about my trans, and I do feel he is very trustworthy and he is well respected on the Impala circles.

He can give you a detailed history. Check his website, lots of good info on there too.
Bum Bum Bummmmmmm......

The 4L60E (and 4L60) transmission enter the "service" in 1993 that they were available for trucks under 8,500 Ibs GVW and in 1997....the 4L60E and 4L80E transmission were tweaked for improved. The 4L80E transmission came in 1991 as well for only heavy duty trucks.

2k3chadillac
06-10-2006, 12:18 AM
ha, easy!
93 was the first year of the 4l60e
95 was the first year of pwm, pulse witdh modulation
97 was the first year of ec3 strategy...which means electronic converter clutch control...and what that means to you is theres a slight difference in the valve body that controlls torque converter slip. and right now ive had a couple to many to drink. monday i will have the straigt facts about the differences but if your wanting to install one in your truck i think your in the clear..the 97 and up computer just has a different control strategy. but dont quote me till monday, and if your wondering, i rebuild trannys, ill give you the facts on monday.

later
chad

cooker2003
06-10-2006, 07:47 AM
ha, easy!
93 was the first year of the 4l60e
95 was the first year of pwm, pulse witdh modulation
97 was the first year of ec3 strategy...which means electronic converter clutch control...and what that means to you is theres a slight difference in the valve body that controlls torque converter slip. and right now ive had a couple to many to drink. monday i will have the straigt facts about the differences but if your wanting to install one in your truck i think your in the clear..the 97 and up computer just has a different control strategy. but dont quote me till monday, and if your wondering, i rebuild trannys, ill give you the facts on monday.

later
chad
So the converter I have for 93-96 4L60E's will work in my 97?

Pauly
06-10-2006, 02:54 PM
1997 was the 1st year of the 13 vane pump, previous was 10 vane.

The 4l60e was 1st used in the trucks in 1993 and 1st used in 1994 in the F-bodies.

I have been told that there are differences in the TCC materials as the TCC lockup strategies changed. tcc+ TORQUE CONVERTER CLUTCH. I think the 1997's used carbon fibre as a clutch material and 1998 used Kevlar, I am not 100% sure on this, wait and see what Chad says on Monday.

I think the reason the TC listing stops at 1996 is because in 1997 the LS! was was introduced in the Vette in 1997 and the GEN 3 engines use a different TC, even though its still a 4l60e.

I am willing to bet that the 1996 4l60e TC will work 100% fine in your 1997.


In late 1997 the 4l60e went to a bolt on bellhousing, while the early 1997 trans had the 1 piece bellhousing with the standard sheetmetal inspection cover.

I am currently using a 1999 OBS 4l60e with the bolt on bellhousing in my 1997 truck that originally had the 1 piece older bellhousing with sheetmetal inspection cover.

2400 rpm is very conservative, my stock V6 s-10 coverter will stall to 2600 rpm behind my Vortec 350.
My next TC will be a 3000 rpm stall.

peace
PAuly

cooker2003
06-11-2006, 10:52 AM
1997 was the 1st year of the 13 vane pump, previous was 10 vane.

The 4l60e was 1st used in the trucks in 1993 and 1st used in 1994 in the F-bodies.

I have been told that there are differences in the TCC materials as the TCC lockup strategies changed. tcc+ TORQUE CONVERTER CLUTCH. I think the 1997's used carbon fibre as a clutch material and 1998 used Kevlar, I am not 100% sure on this, wait and see what Chad says on Monday.

I think the reason the TC listing stops at 1996 is because in 1997 the LS! was was introduced in the Vette in 1997 and the GEN 3 engines use a different TC, even though its still a 4l60e.

I am willing to bet that the 1996 4l60e TC will work 100% fine in your 1997.


In late 1997 the 4l60e went to a bolt on bellhousing, while the early 1997 trans had the 1 piece bellhousing with the standard sheetmetal inspection cover.

I am currently using a 1999 OBS 4l60e with the bolt on bellhousing in my 1997 truck that originally had the 1 piece older bellhousing with sheetmetal inspection cover.

2400 rpm is very conservative, my stock V6 s-10 coverter will stall to 2600 rpm behind my Vortec 350.
My next TC will be a 3000 rpm stall.

peace
PAuly
Pauly, I figured that the reasoning for the 93-96 years was due to the F-body cars, and was somewhat irrelevant when referring to the truck setups. Do you think that the S10 converter would actually stall higher than the B&M 2400? Keep in mind I have no internal modifications to the motor, just a tune, and some other small bolt ons/plug ins. The converter you have in your truck, what year S10 is that out of? This whole '97 year thing is really burning me. I cannot see any reasons this converter wouldn't work with my setup. What do you recommend, would the 2400 stall be a sufficient upgrade that i'm going to notice? If this converter clutch is not setup to be PW modulated, would this cause any problems? I wish I could get through to B&M to actually talk with an engineer.

Pauly
06-11-2006, 03:30 PM
Not to be nit picky, but the reason for the TC stopping at 1996 is because in 1997 the CORVETTE not the F-body started using the different engine(GEN 3), in 1997 the F-body still used the LT1 or LT4 GEN 2 engine. My apologies, I dont point out mistakes to belittle, but to preserve the accuracy of the info.

OK to the trans stuff.

I also have a stock longblock.
When a TC maker says 2400 rpm stall speed, it depends on what factors they are using for their testing. A 2400 rpm flashstall in a 3400 lb car will be a 2500-2800 flashstall in a 4000-4500 lb truck because the extra weight loads the TC more.

In my truck, I apply the parking brake to its max, then I press the normal brake pedal as hard as I can, then I select 1st gear, then I floor the accelerator, my tach reads 2500-2700 rpm, WITHOUT the rear tires moving.

Obviously I dont hold this for more than a second or two, just long enough to read my tach then I let off.

this method of stall testing is called brake stall.

Another method is called flash stall, this where you simply floor the throttle from a dead stop and whatever the highest rpm the tach reads before the vehicle moves is its "flash stall'. This type of stall testing takes into account more factors of the vehicle like: weight, gearing, engine torque etc etc.

I think you will definitley notice a 2400 rpm converter. The stockers stall at around 1600 IIRC. You will be able to leave stoplights harder and the rpm drop at the shifts will be lower.

With my stock L31 TC a WOT 1-2 upshift would cause the rpms to drop from 5500 down to 3300 rpm, it would feel as though my truck was loosing acceleration due to the engine being pulled out of its powerband.

With the S-10 TC, 5500 rpm drops down to just 3700 rpm and the truck continued to accelerate without any hesistation. Traction on the street has become more of a problem due to the extra power being sent to the rear wheels.

The S-10 TC in my truck is from a 1999 S-10 IIRC.

Here is a link to the Impala SS "Herd", they use the S-10 TC as a cheap alternatiuve to higher priced TC's. The Impala SS weighs more than my truck does so durability isnt an issue. They are supposed to be good up to around 400 hp.
http://www.theherd.com/articles/torque.html


There are many good TC makers.
Precision Industries http://www.converter.com/
These guys make the Vigilante TC
Protorque James B used these tC's in his supercharged 2000 Tahoe Limited, both with his 4l60e and his 4l80e trans. Their 2800-3200 TC stalls to 3200 rpm behind his Whipplecharged, marine intaked 383, 4l80e, gearvendor, 14 bolt 4.56 geared truck.

Yank http://www.converter.cc/
used to use Precsuion Industries dyno to test their Products, Tank has recently cut out a lot of their middlemen and have dropped prices on average around $100 per TC, go to the LT1, Camaro/Vette section of their website to get a TC for your truck.

Fuddle Racing http://www.fuddleracing.com/

B&M http://www.bmracing.com/index.php?id=products&sid=4&cat=5&subcat=6&pid=50

TCI http://www.tciauto.com/converters/index.htm

If I had the money, I would buy a 3000 rpm Vigilante with a single disk TCC(torque converter clutch), or maybe a Yank. You dont need a triple or quintuple(5) disk TC unless you are locking the TC at WOT with 400 hp or more. The Vigilante 5 disk is supposed to handle 1200 hp. Yee haw.

the problem with some of the less expensive TC's is that they take stock GM cores and simply bend the fins to acheive the desired stall speed, this doenst make anything stronger and it kills effeciency.

Furnace brazing is good becuase it eliminates welding spatter on the fins which kills effeciency.
Anti balloning plates are only needed if you are planning on serious power with nitrous, blowers or turbos. They help the TC keep its shape under extreme hydraulic forces.

I havent really ,looked into B&M TC's but I will.

Ideally you want the engine to work from its torque peak to its hp peak for maximum acceleration. for the street I have been told that you should select a TC that stalls approx. 500 rpm lowerthan your peak engine torque.

GM rates the Vortec 350 at 330 lb/ft of torque at 2800 rpm, I can tell you for a fact that the actual torque peak is higher than that, more like 3500-3800 rpm. Which is why I would like to use a 3000 rpm TC.

The best way to pick a TC is to find some folks who have Vortec 350's with aftermarket TC's and ask them what their stall speeds are.

The S-10 V6 TC swap has exactly the same premise that the GEN 3/4 99+ truck owners have when they install the Inline 6 cylinder Trailblazer TC's behind their V8's. The more torque you feed a TC, the higher the stall speed will be.

The older THM 400 transmissions used to have a "switch pitch" TC in which a switch could be moved and you could select say a 1400 rpm stall speed, or flick the switch and have say a 2400 rpm stall speed. That would be cool.

I honestly dont think you would have any problems if you "mixed" the TCC materials or PWM strategies since unless you above 85mph the TC wont lock at WOT, at least with the stock PCM tuning. It might become problematic if you started locking the TC at WOT in 2nd gear or something. But the part throttle lockups that you will normally encounter in daily driving or the odd street race wont hurt anything. IMO
It would be best to talk with an engineer at a TC maker though. At worst you might get some chatter when the TC locks, but i doubt it.

peace
Pauly

cooker2003
06-12-2006, 04:39 PM
Not to be nit picky, but the reason for the TC stopping at 1996 is because in 1997 the CORVETTE not the F-body started using the different engine(GEN 3), in 1997 the F-body still used the LT1 or LT4 GEN 2 engine. My apologies, I dont point out mistakes to belittle, but to preserve the accuracy of the info.

OK to the trans stuff.

I also have a stock longblock.
When a TC maker says 2400 rpm stall speed, it depends on what factors they are using for their testing. A 2400 rpm flashstall in a 3400 lb car will be a 2500-2800 flashstall in a 4000-4500 lb truck because the extra weight loads the TC more.

In my truck, I apply the parking brake to its max, then I press the normal brake pedal as hard as I can, then I select 1st gear, then I floor the accelerator, my tach reads 2500-2700 rpm, WITHOUT the rear tires moving.

Obviously I dont hold this for more than a second or two, just long enough to read my tach then I let off.

this method of stall testing is called brake stall.

Another method is called flash stall, this where you simply floor the throttle from a dead stop and whatever the highest rpm the tach reads before the vehicle moves is its "flash stall'. This type of stall testing takes into account more factors of the vehicle like: weight, gearing, engine torque etc etc.

I think you will definitley notice a 2400 rpm converter. The stockers stall at around 1600 IIRC. You will be able to leave stoplights harder and the rpm drop at the shifts will be lower.

With my stock L31 TC a WOT 1-2 upshift would cause the rpms to drop from 5500 down to 3300 rpm, it would feel as though my truck was loosing acceleration due to the engine being pulled out of its powerband.

With the S-10 TC, 5500 rpm drops down to just 3700 rpm and the truck continued to accelerate without any hesistation. Traction on the street has become more of a problem due to the extra power being sent to the rear wheels.

The S-10 TC in my truck is from a 1999 S-10 IIRC.

Here is a link to the Impala SS "Herd", they use the S-10 TC as a cheap alternatiuve to higher priced TC's. The Impala SS weighs more than my truck does so durability isnt an issue. They are supposed to be good up to around 400 hp.
http://www.theherd.com/articles/torque.html


There are many good TC makers.
Precision Industries http://www.converter.com/
These guys make the Vigilante TC
Protorque James B used these tC's in his supercharged 2000 Tahoe Limited, both with his 4l60e and his 4l80e trans. Their 2800-3200 TC stalls to 3200 rpm behind his Whipplecharged, marine intaked 383, 4l80e, gearvendor, 14 bolt 4.56 geared truck.

Yank http://www.converter.cc/
used to use Precsuion Industries dyno to test their Products, Tank has recently cut out a lot of their middlemen and have dropped prices on average around $100 per TC, go to the LT1, Camaro/Vette section of their website to get a TC for your truck.

Fuddle Racing http://www.fuddleracing.com/

B&M http://www.bmracing.com/index.php?id=products&sid=4&cat=5&subcat=6&pid=50

TCI http://www.tciauto.com/converters/index.htm

If I had the money, I would buy a 3000 rpm Vigilante with a single disk TCC(torque converter clutch), or maybe a Yank. You dont need a triple or quintuple(5) disk TC unless you are locking the TC at WOT with 400 hp or more. The Vigilante 5 disk is supposed to handle 1200 hp. Yee haw.

the problem with some of the less expensive TC's is that they take stock GM cores and simply bend the fins to acheive the desired stall speed, this doenst make anything stronger and it kills effeciency.

Furnace brazing is good becuase it eliminates welding spatter on the fins which kills effeciency.
Anti balloning plates are only needed if you are planning on serious power with nitrous, blowers or turbos. They help the TC keep its shape under extreme hydraulic forces.

I havent really ,looked into B&M TC's but I will.

Ideally you want the engine to work from its torque peak to its hp peak for maximum acceleration. for the street I have been told that you should select a TC that stalls approx. 500 rpm lowerthan your peak engine torque.

GM rates the Vortec 350 at 330 lb/ft of torque at 2800 rpm, I can tell you for a fact that the actual torque peak is higher than that, more like 3500-3800 rpm. Which is why I would like to use a 3000 rpm TC.

The best way to pick a TC is to find some folks who have Vortec 350's with aftermarket TC's and ask them what their stall speeds are.

The S-10 V6 TC swap has exactly the same premise that the GEN 3/4 99+ truck owners have when they install the Inline 6 cylinder Trailblazer TC's behind their V8's. The more torque you feed a TC, the higher the stall speed will be.

The older THM 400 transmissions used to have a "switch pitch" TC in which a switch could be moved and you could select say a 1400 rpm stall speed, or flick the switch and have say a 2400 rpm stall speed. That would be cool.

I honestly dont think you would have any problems if you "mixed" the TCC materials or PWM strategies since unless you above 85mph the TC wont lock at WOT, at least with the stock PCM tuning. It might become problematic if you started locking the TC at WOT in 2nd gear or something. But the part throttle lockups that you will normally encounter in daily driving or the odd street race wont hurt anything. IMO
It would be best to talk with an engineer at a TC maker though. At worst you might get some chatter when the TC locks, but i doubt it.

peace
Pauly
Pauly, I just got off the phone with a guy at B&M, he was very short with me, but told me that the input splines on the transmission changed in '97. Can you or anyone else shed some light on this subject?

N0DIH
06-12-2006, 04:43 PM
Did you call Shane at CPT?

http://www.cpt4l60e.com/contactus.html

cooker2003
06-12-2006, 04:58 PM
Well, I just checked part numbers on the input shafts, and 24200901 is the same part number for a 96 4L60E, 97 4L60E, and '99 S-10. I am beginning to think no one I have talked to ACTUALLY knows for sure, they are just going by what the caption says. I honestly think that is targeted toward the cars.

Pauly
06-13-2006, 12:09 AM
The 1996 60e has a 10 vane pump while in 97 it got a 13 vane pump. They both have the same flow output but the 13 vane pump sends smoother oil pulses where the 10 vane will break parts in certain situations.

I could understand B&M's year break if it was 98+ or 97 and earlier in the F-bodies because of the switch from the LT1/T4 to the LS1 which has a different input spine count.

In the trucks there is a late 1997-99 OBS truck bolt on bellhousing with 360 bellhousing 4l60e, and there is an early 1997 and older 4l60E with the 1 piece trans case with screw on sheetmetal inspection cover. Both use the same torque converters and have the same input shafts.

My 1997 truck was installed with the older 4l60e, I now have a 1999 OBS truck 4l60e with the different bellhousing. The trans dowels are the same, the electronics are the same, it works perfect.

The truck trans dont change until the 1999 NBS 4,8 or 5.3 engines. The cars that came with the conventional 4l60e changed input shafts in 1998.(the Vettes used the transaxle in 1997 with LS1 engine F-bodies got the LSs1 in 98)


peace
Pauly

cooker2003
06-14-2006, 05:15 PM
Well, I decided to go with the S10 torque converter, its about the same price, and it has been proven by several that it works. Hopefully it will be in by Tuesday.

cooker2003
06-14-2006, 05:56 PM
I don't know what to do here....I ordered an S10 converter, but I still am not sure that I should be using a stock replacement converter instead of a higher dollar unit such as a TCI or Precision. Are those THAT much better than the S10 converter??

Pauly
06-14-2006, 11:18 PM
I would have to say that a Precsion Industries TC or most other aftermarket TC's would be a lot better than an S-10 TC.

Some built TC's can drop over 1/2 off of 1/4 mile times, with the S-10 TC a couple tenths.

The S-10/Vette TC is a low buck alternative.

peace
Pauly