Cummins swap... which trans?

[GreaseDog]

so lets say someone is considering a Cummins swap into a 90 R3500... it has a TH400 in it now, with a 454, but both are going into other projects. what trans would you guys put behind the Cummins, and why?

plans are for 3.73s (highest you can go with a 14FF/60 combo), and 35" tires.

[GreaseDog]

must be an auto. truck will be used as a driver/tow pig.

[IRISSERVICE]

this may help some
http://www.transmissioncenter.org/cummins_4bt_and_6bt_adapter.htm

[Blue Bowtie]

Which motor? Stock or not?

[GreaseDog]

probably just a 12v, and slightly warmer than stock if not stock.

[`Green Machine]

I personally would put an NV4500 behind it... but you specified it must be an automatic so you can ignore that suggestion...

[Blue Bowtie]

I would say an Allison. Although they're somewhat expensive, then the stand alone controller is $1600. It really depends on how much you want to spend.
Or you could keep it simple, and get another 400.

[GreaseDog]

no OD and 3.73s is kinda pushing it isnt it? i read somewhere they like to stay around 1800RPMs at cruise. 3.73s witha .75:1 OD would put me there right about 65mph.

now i understand why alot of Dodge trucks come with 3.55 gears. :lol:

[95 SCSB]

well it depends on what generation your going to get. personally, id go with the p-pumped 12V instead of the 1st generation VE-Pump, depending on your wants or needs. if its just going to be a tow pig, id go for the 1st gens with the VE 89-93. i believe the 91.5s came stock with an intercooler but dont quote me on that. stock they have about 160hp at the crank and about 400ft lbs of torque completely stock. a turbo upgrade, pump tweaks, intake and exhaust, some good flowing injectors, you can see the power range at around 350hp, maybe more. depends how much you want to spend. ive seen vids on youtube of 1st gens pumping out 500hp and ungodly amounts of torque. i dont remember the exact number, but the pump on the 1st gens run at about 15k psi, while modern diesels push around... uhh, wanna say 30k and up

that being said, i think you'll be happy with a 1st gen. considerably cheaper too. a 94-98 12V will run you about 2,500 big ones with about 100k on it if you get lucky. a 1st gen with about 100k will run about 1200-1500. the trans for 1st gens are kind of easy to find. either came with a torqueflite(spell check)727 3 speed non overdrive, or an A518 4 speed overdrive. both of these are very simplistic trannies, but they dont have a lock-up torque converter, hindering mileage a little. BUT!!! they can be beefed up pretty cheaply and easily and hold up quite well. later versions of the A518 would be the 46, 47, and 48RH or REs transmissions. these are quite crappy. i would never own a cummins with a crappy trans like that.

all in all though, i would shy away from an auto. you mite as well get a tried and true NV4500 from a chevy. these dont seem to have the 5th gear problems like the NV4500 that came in dodges for whatever reason? there are plenty of rebuild kits for these, and plenty of heavy duty clutch kits. do not get a NV5600!!! parts are very limited and dont seem to be as beefy as its 5 speed brother.

check out www.4btswaps.com for more info. some of those people really know their stuff. im just a messenger. try and get ahold of Crewcab59. hes from TN diesel conversions and authorized cummins dealer. he'll put you in the right direction and even mite be able to find you a 5.9 for your truck

i hope this helps and points you in the right direction

[GreaseDog]

as much as i'd like a manual, i hate shifting gears. since this will be a driver, and a long distance tow pig, auto is the way to go.

the A518 is a pretty beefy trans then?

[95 SCSB]

as much as i'd like a manual, i hate shifting gears. since this will be a driver, and a long distance tow pig, auto is the way to go.

the A518 is a pretty beefy trans then?

its simplistic. gtg, ttyl

[XLR8N]

well it depends on what generation your going to get. personally, id go with the p-pumped 12V instead of the 1st generation VE-Pump, depending on your wants or needs. if its just going to be a tow pig, id go for the 1st gens with the VE 89-93. i believe the 91.5s came stock with an intercooler but dont quote me on that. stock they have about 160hp at the crank and about 400ft lbs of torque completely stock. a turbo upgrade, pump tweaks, intake and exhaust, some good flowing injectors, you can see the power range at around 350hp, maybe more. depends how much you want to spend. ive seen vids on youtube of 1st gens pumping out 500hp and ungodly amounts of torque. i dont remember the exact number, but the pump on the 1st gens run at about 15k psi, while modern diesels push around... uhh, wanna say 30k and up

that being said, i think you'll be happy with a 1st gen. considerably cheaper too. a 94-98 12V will run you about 2,500 big ones with about 100k on it if you get lucky. a 1st gen with about 100k will run about 1200-1500. the trans for 1st gens are kind of easy to find. either came with a torqueflite(spell check)727 3 speed non overdrive, or an A518 4 speed overdrive. both of these are very simplistic trannies, but they dont have a lock-up torque converter, hindering mileage a little. BUT!!! they can be beefed up pretty cheaply and easily and hold up quite well. later versions of the A518 would be the 46, 47, and 48RH or REs transmissions. these are quite crappy. i would never own a cummins with a crappy trans like that.

all in all though, i would shy away from an auto. you mite as well get a tried and true NV4500 from a chevy. these dont seem to have the 5th gear problems like the NV4500 that came in dodges for whatever reason? there are plenty of rebuild kits for these, and plenty of heavy duty clutch kits. do not get a NV5600!!! parts are very limited and dont seem to be as beefy as its 5 speed brother.

check out www.4btswaps.com for more info. some of those people really know their stuff. im just a messenger. try and get ahold of Crewcab59. hes from TN diesel conversions and authorized cummins dealer. he'll put you in the right direction and even mite be able to find you a 5.9 for your truck

i hope this helps and points you in the right direction

very informative post.

and that bellhousing kit is 1300 bucks. yikes.

[92_half ton_W/T]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what about a 4L80E? I would think it would be beefy enough to handle a mostly stock 12V Cummins.

Then again, I'm no expert, so please school me if I'm wrong.

[XLR8N]

right but the controller is expensive IIRC

i'm no expert myself

[92_half ton_W/T]

right but the controller is expensive IIRC

i'm no expert myself
Well we've already talked about a $1600 Allison Controller and a $1300 bellhousing kit, so the 4L80E controller can't be much out of comparison with those.

By the way, i believe with an Allison, you'd probably have to add a BL. It would be sweet to see done, but for a mostly stock Cummins, I don't think I could justify the added cost. Now if you were going to add some twins and mod the engine to the max, I'd definitely say an Allison would be one of the few autos that could handle it.

:dunno:

[XLR8N]

well i think it's all expensive lol. you could get a donor wiring harness and have a standalone made up...

[Nasty-Z]

plans are for 3.73s (highest you can go with a 14FF/60 combo)

Why is this , I assume it's not because of R&P avalibility .

TOM

[kirk]

Why is this , I assume it's not because of R&P avalibility .

TOM

Highest matching ratio for that axle combo is 3.73. You can get higher gears, but 3.73 is the highest you can go and still have matchin gear ratios.

[kirk]

Personally, I'd run either a 4L80 or a TH400 with something like one of the overdrives advance adapters has behind it

[josh25]

When I was researching this I found that for the $ and simplicity of the swap a 4l80e was the best solution because they make the adapters to bolt to the cummins. You can also beef up the 80e which is what I had considered if I was gonna go down that road.

[mljjones67]

check out 4btswaps dot com
Lots of info on cummins swaps.

[Nasty-Z]

Highest matching ratio for that axle combo is 3.73. You can get higher gears, but 3.73 is the highest you can go and still have matchin gear ratios.

Got it , I was just slow, thinking higher (numerically) not higher gear wise .

TOM

[XLR8N]

get a FLT Lvl XXXV lol

[95 SCSB]

ok sorry bout leaving you stranded.

yes, id suggest an A518 if you go the 1st generation route. these trans are i think the best all around. its basically a torqueflite 727 with another gear. the only thing is they dont have a lock-up torque converter, lower the mileage just a tiny bit. but since they dont have a lock-up, building these up to handle more power is very simplistic since its also fully hydraulic. once u start getting into the computer controlled crap, expect to pay at LEAST 800 bucks for a controller. for that money you can find another trans and buy parts for a rebuild. yeah, f-that.

if you want a good trans tho, and are willing to go with the electronic junk, then go ahead with the 4L80E. its a great trans but keep in mind, you WILL need an adapter plate to mate the cummins to the 4L80E. this is why, again, id go with the A518 trans. they came in 1st gens and finding the right parts to slap the cummins with it is fairly easy, and somewhat cheap. again, this is just my 2 cents if you want to keep hassle to a minimum.

4l80E - bout 1K
Controller- another grand
adapter plate- 800
other odds and ends - ?

A518- round 500 bucks if you get a good deal
rebuild with good clutch pack - 1200?
other odds and ends- ?

maybe saivn 1500 bucks give or take 4l80E over A518

[95 SCSB]

very informative post.

and that bellhousing kit is 1300 bucks. yikes.

oh and thank you. glad to see some one is reading my rants :lol:

and dang it, i forgot that price of the adapter might be used. the price of a new 1 is pretty salty.

www.destroked.com

^that'll get you pointed in the right direction if you want the 80E over 518

[Racking9398]

well if you get the cummins with the 47rh in it, they bolt directly to the motor and can be buily just as strong as a allison! if your checking and getting one built check out gorearend or hts.

[95 SCSB]

well if you get the cummins with the 47rh in it, they bolt directly to the motor and can be buily just as strong as a allison! if your checking and getting one built check out gorearend or hts.

wouldnt that seem over-kill though? he said its going to be stock, with maybe just a mods, nothing that you would need a fully built trans. thats y i think he would b satisfied with a mild 1st gen with a good rebuilt

[crossy's son]

Grease, having 4 first gen dodge cummins pickups, one of them swapped to a 47RH auto.

Get a 89-91 Non intercooled cummins engine from a pickup, Put a 47RH behind it with a decent converter (call up Dave Goerend at www.goerend.com) and some kind of shift kit/valve body and be done with it.

yea yea, who need a fvckin intercooler. it takes minimal parts to add an intercooler and the 89-91 engines have huge injectors stock and can be pushed over 300HP/650tq on stock injectors and a small turbo upgrade.

47RH is a hydraulic trans, A-518 is a hydraulic trans also. But the A-518 is a cheaper trans but has no lockup....and a good tight converter or a 518 will run you about $600 depending how tight you want it..the factory one is about 65% efficient and it has to go.

the 47rh is more expensive but has lockup...but is very expensive to buy a good tight converter for.

So both trans have their ups and downs...to get O/D all you'd have to do is hook up a potentiometer in place of the TPS a 91.5-93 truck would have.

All that being said...Get a VE pumped motor. Cheaper and very fun to play around with (tweaking the pump for more power is free vs. a P-pump everything is a PITA and costs money)

[crossy's son]

And something that not a lot of swappers know is.

In the dodge cummins pickups from 89-91 with the 3 SPEED AUTO A-727 they ONLY came with 3.07 gears... Dana 71 in rear and dana 60 kingpin up front. 2wd and 4x4 had 3.07 gears as long as you got the 3spd auto behind the cummins....3.07s were not offered in O/D 91.5-93 trucks or in 5spd trucks.

The 727,A-518,47RH are all GOOD TRANNIES and the aftermarket has backed that up... no matter the reputation dodge trannies have don't go through all the work to put a GM trans in it.

Dodge trannies got such a bad rep because dumbasses put the wrong fluid in them...they take ATF+4 NOT DexMerc and dexmerc bottles say that right on them.

[Nasty-Z]

In the dodge cummins pickups from 89-91 with the 3 SPEED AUTO A-727 they ONLY came with 3.07 gears... Dana 71 in rear and dana 60 kingpin up front. 2wd and 4x4 had 3.07 gears as long as you got the 3spd auto behind the cummins....3.07s were not offered in O/D 91.5-93 trucks or in 5spd trucks.

You mean Dana 61 I think , they were sort of a carbon copy of the D60 but were cast to accept lower (numerically) ratios (usually 3.54's or 3.07's) Found in Dodge trucks and Ford van's and trucks they are near impossible to find parts for.

I had one out of a Ford pickup , found out the hard way that traditional D60 parts will not work without mod's .

TOM

[crossy's son]

Yea its a Dana-61, i said 60 to not comfuse anyone but whatever.

And yea 3.07 anything is extinct, the housing for a 3.54-4.10 truck is the same but the 3.07 diff. is the one that is different.

[SteppinLo]

I vote for the 47RH. Only needs a couple of wires to trigger OD and T/C lock. The aftermarket knows how to makes them last behind powerful Cummins engines and my billet front half t/c costs around $500 or less with 350HP at the flywheel.

[Hotwheelz]

I am finishing a 46RE right now that I did in my auto trans class. I rebuilt it with a deluxe kit from trans star. All new clutches, steels, seals, rings, thrust washers, gaskets, and a new pump. I'm finishing the valve body tomorrow and it will be dyno'd. I plan on recording the dyno run to show how well the transmission works before selling it. It was in a 99 1 ton dodge ram van. Just a heads up if you're interested.

[GreaseDog]

wont really be looking to start collecting parts until tax time, until then im pinching pennies.

[crossy's son]

I am finishing a 46RE right now that I did in my auto trans class. I rebuilt it with a deluxe kit from trans star. All new clutches, steels, seals, rings, thrust washers, gaskets, and a new pump. I'm finishing the valve body tomorrow and it will be dyno'd. I plan on recording the dyno run to show how well the transmission works before selling it. It was in a 99 1 ton dodge ram van. Just a heads up if you're interested.

the RE would require a stand alone computer and the 46RE is an electronic 518 gasser trans, it will not work and cost too much to make work behind a diesel

[Hotwheelz]

so is it the 47/48RH that works behind the cummins?

[GreaseDog]

kinda liking the idea of a 400/205 with a Gear Vendors overdrive sandwiched in the middle... hmmm pricy but badass and bulletproof.

[VortecZ]

For ease and cost of swapping, my suggestion would be not focus so much on getting the perfect set-up because some of the above combinations could really cost a lot. I think you should be looking for an entire truck to buy that can be gotten at a reasonable price because of being wrecked or a rusted out body. Buying a complete truck saves a lot of time hunting for parts and adapters. Use the motor, tranny, and transfer case all from the doner and just make it fit your truck. Each one of the combinations has its pros and cons but they can all be built to hold up to stock/mild motors.

[crossy's son]

Grease, you got something going for you, You want an AUTO.

Dodge CTD automatic trucks are plentiful and alot cheaper than 5spd trucks... a rotted out one or wrecked or a hammered farm truck would be excellent...and sell the rest of the CTD stuff off the dodge when your done pulling your motor and stuff...D70 rear....D60 front...etc.

[GreaseDog]

might have a use for the D60... :D

i've got other fish to fry right now though. just thinking ahead a bit. who knows, i may end up just straight axling the truck, and rolling it on 3/4 tons with a gas engine for a while.

[mr_goodwrench_0]

You could always pull an engine and allison from a bus...

If you wanted a 4L80 you can piece together your own controller from factory parts found in Chevy diesel vans.

Bill

[SteppinLo]

The 12V gets either a 47RH or 47RE depending on the year. RE does require a computer to shift. RH needs a wire for t/c lock and o/d engagement. That's why it gets my vote.
The third gen ("03 up) get the 48RE and the newer Aisin (sp?) trans.

[crossy's son]

The allison that is in a bus behind a cummins is a junk 4spd 545 with no overdrive.

[mr_goodwrench_0]

Huh. The one we had at work had o/d. It was a short bus. LOL

Bill

[crossy's son]

Short buses are special. :D

:windowlic:

[hotdogstand]

Well we've already talked about a $1600 Allison Controller and a $1300 bellhousing kit, so the 4L80E controller can't be much out of comparison with those.

By the way, i believe with an Allison, you'd probably have to add a BL. It would be sweet to see done, but for a mostly stock Cummins, I don't think I could justify the added cost. Now if you were going to add some twins and mod the engine to the max, I'd definitely say an Allison would be one of the few autos that could handle it.

:dunno:

GMPP sells the controller for the 4L80E for around the same as the alli. Right around 1000-1200 bucks. keystone automotive can nab you one through advance auto or o'reillys for about a grand. But most dodges have crap autos. You're better going with a GM if you go automatic.

[thedirtymax]

The allison that is in a bus behind a cummins is a junk 4spd 545 with no overdrive.

are you saying their junk because their a 4 speed? the 47rh/re are both 4 speed transmissions. the allison is actually a pretty bullet proof trans even in the 4 speed model.

[josh25]

So Grease what did you decide on this swap, are you going to go for it? I'm still toying the idea around myself but I kind of want a manual tranny. I think it would be neat having a cummins in a burban with a manual transmission. I'm debating on that or getting a newer truck.

[crossy's son]

are you saying their junk because their a 4 speed? the 47rh/re are both 4 speed transmissions. the allison is actually a pretty bullet proof trans even in the 4 speed model.

47rh/47re are also LOCKUP CONVERTER with OVERDRIVE!! thats a 100% connection with a .69 overdrive...

Think about this, a big heavy slow shifting 4 speed non-lockup non-overdrive transmission

Basicly what the 89-91 dodge cummins trucks had (727 tqflt), it got a code name "slushbox"

Bulletproof....ehhh not really, they have a service life of 140k behind 12v's in buses. My uncle maintains a whole fleet of bluebirds for our school systems...some cummins/545 and some T444E/545....

All i'm saying is stay away from the 545 because its a big heavy slush box....

[Dru71]

So Grease what did you decide on this swap, are you going to go for it? I'm still toying the idea around myself but I kind of want a manual tranny. I think it would be neat having a cummins in a burban with a manual transmission. I'm debating on that or getting a newer truck.



DO IT, why buy new and pay higher insurance

I've seen the 4bt 4 cylinder cummins in a burban before,

Here is a link for it running http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV903Ai7Uhg

and a K1500 with a 4bt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wG_Arpq5oKY&feature=related

[crossy's son]

Pre-turbo mounted PYRO gauge, is all you need to keep an eye on things :D

[Hatfieco]

There are cheaper controllers out there it doesn't have to be 4l80e specific, think about how many variables you need to control, not many. Not to mention they put the 4l80e behind the 6.5 td in 93 which was an all mechanical motor... The guys over at 4btswaps.com have instructions on how to make this work with the 4l80e Ive been a member there for years. Theres also a yahoo group with TONS AND TONS of info. Search on yahoo. I know from experience the 4l80e isn't the biggest fan of diesels in stock trim. If you did a 4l80e you would have to do the sprag uprade, clutches and have the accumulators set for the sig lower rpms to build some pressure. And crossy the reason the dodge trannies got a bad rep was also because of the pressure issue. Toss a transgo shift kit in it to build up some pressure and they will last. For this setup i think 4l80 is going to be your way to go. Keep as much of the truck gm as possible so then you dont have to fab cross members plugs yada yada yada. Oh has anyone mentioned the fact you need a body lift as well? Just a heads up.

[GreaseDog]

fabbing crossmembers doesnt scare me a bit, especially if it will keep me away from a body lift by setting the engine lower in the chassis. is that possible?

[Hatfieco]

Not sure the only mounts worth buying are the fluid filled ones especially for a first gen 12v, world of difference in vibration... You might be able to get away with it but I think its due to the tunnel and the over all length of the 6bt. Not sure if you can get enough by doing mounts to avoid a bl. I think if you just want to slide it in on a set of the conversion mounts you need a 2in body lift. Ill try and find the stand alone controller alot of guys on 4bt and the yahoo forum have used. I cant remember the name of the yahoo forum but it was really good.

[Hatfieco]

http://www.becontrols.com/products/electronicscat.htm Thats a killer controller for 550 or you can go full manual valve body on the 4l80e and just toss in a slap shifter? Might be nice when towing so that 80e isnt hunting because the rpms are keepin the pressures high enough. Your right about 1800 rpms bein the sweet spot, keep it there or below and it will get good economy and peak torque isnt far away. Go above 1800 and your mileage will tank.

[ohcrzyguy]

don't know if you got your tranny but i would go with the 47rh, it was easy to get to work with hub switches. if you don't get a cummins with a chevy tranny you'll pay $$$ for the tranny to motor mount plate.with that if you go with a 1gen and want a 47rh or re, you'll need the tranny mounting plate of a 2nd gen.i used 2nd gen motor mounts on a 1st gen.no body lift

[crossy's son]

47RH is the ultimate trans, Easily controlled, Lockup, Deep overdrive, and hydraulic valve body....only thing is, they're hard to get your hands on because they're 2 year only!

[GreaseDog]

patience pays off... got a line on a 96 3500... not sure if its an auto, or a manual though. either way, i can't really go wrong.

was involved in an accident a couple weeks ago... hit a car it was trying to pass, which then decided to turn left. things were fine with only minor body damage... until it tried to climb the car... once the front axle hit the side of the car, it pushed everything back by messing up the control arms...

getting the truck for $1500 if everything looks ok when i go take a look at it.

[crossy's son]

Sounds good. It's a dually too so it'll have a D80

[GreaseDog]

yeah, its got an 80 rear. hopefully i can make some good scratch parting out the rest of the truck, and make my money back.

[crossy's son]

yea if it has a good grey 20/40/20 seat, theres $200. No lie i sell 94-97 Dodge cloth seats for $200 all day. :lol:. they like to shred.

You don't know what trans it has? Hopefully it's a 5 speed!!

[GreaseDog]

looking at pics... front axle is a drivers drop correct? that means i'm looking for an IFS truck 241 with a 32 spline input, if so.

[crossy's son]

29 spline if it is 5 speed, 32 spline if it has automatic.

yea the front axle is drivers drop.

[GreaseDog]

CRAP... that means i need to find another 32 spline input 241 from a 90-91 straight axle truck. FML

[crossy's son]

Yea how bout a 90-91 Blazer or burb? That'll have a 700R4 but It's still a 241, Would that work?

[GreaseDog]

Yea how bout a 90-91 Blazer or burb? That'll have a 700R4 but It's still a 241, Would that work?

then i just need to find 2 32 spline inputs for that one, and the one i have.

the truck is an auto. went and looked at it today... apparently he called a local diesel shop, and they told him the motor was worth 3000-3500 because of recent work that was done to it. a complete top end overhaul. still haven't talked to him about it, just his wife. maybe since he told me 1500, he'll stick with it.

guess maybe i shouldn't have thrown his stepdaughter and her kids out of my house a month ago... oops.

[2500ak]

A cheap option would be a vacuum modulated 4l80e, with manual VB. You'd have to select gears and toggle lockup manually which would get annoying but you wouldn't have to mess with a clutch or worry about killing it, nor would you need electronic instrumentation. I think that would work at any rate.

[GreaseDog]

went and looked at it yesterday, local diesel shop offered him $3000 for the engine alone... i don't have that kind of cash to throw around, so i'm out a Cummins. oh well, i'll find one eventually.

[crossy's son]

That engine is not worth 3k whoever is going to pay that is retarded....That's a $1300 engine on a good day if that.

[GreaseDog]

it has just had the entire top end redone...

[ziggy 838]

New to this forum.
I just did a 94 Suburban 4x4 conversion from a 94 ram.
I am using a 47rh and was wondering if anyone sells a bracket from the 47rh linkage to the chevy column shifter?
Thanks

[GreaseDog]

So Grease what did you decide on this swap, are you going to go for it? I'm still toying the idea around myself but I kind of want a manual tranny. I think it would be neat having a cummins in a burban with a manual transmission. I'm debating on that or getting a newer truck.

didn't decide on anything. i bought a 96 Ram 3500 with a 12 valve and a 47RE in it, and sold the crewcab. :lol: