My 96 BB K2500 Burbie build thread

[95dually]

I recently picked up a 96 Burbie with a BB and I honestly love it. Havn't had the chance to tow anything with it yet but can't wait to see how it does. That being said, i've been reading that HUGE BB thread (like 400 and some pages long) and i've gotten to page 40 ish. I really like the truck and plan on keeping it for a while and want to see how scary this thing can be with some head work and boltons. I've already started making plans/a list of parts I want and would like some input or personal experiences..... Would also like to know around how much power I'd be looking at making with these mods so I can pick injectors accordingly:)

1. I would really like some Thorleys but they are expensive and are discontinued. How do Hedman's compare to them? (Longtubes)

2. It's mainly my tow rig but still want it to haul tail........ zz502 or 454Ho cam?

3. Has a Magnaflow on it now but i'm a Flowmaster guy so should I go 3 inch single out or 2.25 true duals?

4. Electric fan or leave the stock one?

5. Underdrive pulley or leave it stock?

6. What is a Ram Air Intake?

7. Are there any locals here in Central Cali? (Fresno)

8. Any dyno days/big events coming up this forum participates in?

[V3NOM GTO]

1.I have heard good things about the hedmans. Check what they are coated in first, you don't want anything "painted" it will rust, fast. If you find a set you can't live without that are painted look into getting them Jet hot coated or atleast Powdercoated.
2.People have had lots of luck with Comps 264 HR cam. a little choppy but pulls strong. Of course if you wanted something with a little lower power band the 258 is a good cam too. If you don't mind spendin a couple extra bucks you can call up comp and they'll custom grind you one to whatever specs you need (they can help with that too). It was only $306 for my custom cam, but that was with a military discount.
3. I think exhaust is really not gonna net or loose you very much power, go with whatever sounds good to you. If you do true duels keep in mind an H or X pipe will keep popping down to a minimum.
4. Def get some electric fans if you can get your hands on some. Free up power and def cool better.
5. You won't see much gain from UDP (some people claim 10 RWHP but that's doubtful). They make your water pump, alt, pwr steering put out less, so that's your call. If you need the extra 10 hp and will sacrifice that stuff then go ahead.
6.Ram air is any intake where outside air is forced (rammed) into the intake from the truck moving. Most kits you find aren't true ram air intakes just cold air.
7.Not me, I'm in OKC :D
8.I'm sure there are some in your area. Around Okc they have dyno days all the time, usually $45 for 3 pulls.

[95dually]

Thanks:)

1. How do Hedmans (number wise) compare to Thorleys? If Thorleys are just slightly better then I won't mind going with Hedman.

2. Any recomended brand of efans and what's the minimum cfm?

3. With the mods stated above, what hp/tq ballpark would I be looking at once tuned?

4. By knowing the answer to # 3, I'd be able to know which inj. To get.

The truck runs perfect right now, even with the .60 spark plug gap but i'm going to fix that real soon to .45:) I'm just trying to get info on the stuff i'm looking at buying so I can start to stash parts and install them when my injectors and fpr start to act up.

[V3NOM GTO]

1. I really don't know on the headers, coudn't be too much. Especially if you stay with the stock heads in all honestly probably pretty close.

2. I can't even tell you what mine are, but I run dual 16" fans, I wanna say they pull like 1500cfm each or something like that, don't quote me. Heres some pics of my setup at the bottom.

3. With the stock heads I'd say your gonna be hard pressed to get above the 325 RWHP mark, but torque might creep up into the 350-375 ish range with some more bolt ons.

4. Not sure exactly on the later model BBC's but us Mark IV guys just get a FPR and turn up the fuel pressure. I'm hoping for around 525-575 ish RWHP with stock injectors, but I run TBI not multiport.

Extra. For tuning I would suggest the EBL unit from Dynamic EFI, it's what I will be running and the 454SS guys are doing a group buy in Mar that you could probably get in on, you can check it out at the 454ss.com website.

Link to my build thread.
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forum/general-discussion/projects-builds-restorations/489805-454ss-deployment-build.html
http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv156/V3NOM_GTO/454/Radiator/DSCF2369.jpg
http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv156/V3NOM_GTO/454/Radiator/DSCF2368.jpg
http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv156/V3NOM_GTO/454/Radiator/DSCF2367.jpg
http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv156/V3NOM_GTO/454/Radiator/DSCF2365.jpg

[JadXtreme]

Venom GTO, where did you get your radiator from? I would like to put a better rad in my truck to get away from that little 1" thick rad that is in it now.

[skills4lou]

2. It's mainly my tow rig but still want it to haul tail........ zz502 or 454Ho cam?

3. Has a Magnaflow on it now but i'm a Flowmaster guy so should I go 3 inch single out or 2.25 true duals?

4. Electric fan or leave the stock one?


2 and 4 are related. If you tow, stick with the stock fan. It has (or should have) a fan clutch. If it's functioning correctly, the OE fan isn't really using any hp because it's almost 'freewheeling' so to speak at normal operating temps. It engages at about 210 deg F. Start towing on a hot summer day, uphill and you'll be REALLY happy to have that big fan kick in and cool things down. Electric fans are decent, but to get comparable cfm's you'll need monster fans, and they'll be drawing a LOT of electricity, which will add drag via the alternator. For me, e-fans just aren't worth the expense. YMMV.

3. I have the Magnaflow dual in/out 2.5" (can't remember the exact model at the moment). Sounds good, without being obnoxious on the highway.

[1998454]

Here's what i know. http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/PATH8058.htm these headers make a huge difference. They are for the old tbi truck. You will have to fab an egr adapter into the drivers collector to keep egr. I assume where you live you will have to pass smog so definately keep egr and dual cats. This setup with good mufflers and 2 1/2" pipes is a huge gain over my shorty headers and duals. Forget a cold air intake....the truck came with one. Forget tb spacers, they do nothing. I run an underdrive pulley without issue with the a/c or alternator. It has to help some, i just don't know how much. I run a hypertech programmer that works good, but do NOT spend the money for a hand held unit. Get a custom tune, and maybe go with the 98 model ecm as i think it offers more tuning options. Read up in the threads on the injectors...If your injectors and fpr are stock, they are bad or soon to be. I don't know yet what E fans are worth...haven't tested them.

[95dually]

http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/GIBGP118S.htm. What about these?
http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/DHRD3397-R.htm or these? Also, if the headers aren't coated, couldn't I just paint them with high temp paint and wouldn't that help keep the temp down under the hood from the headers? Yea, as far as injectors go, the truck has close to 130,000 miles so you are prob right. That's why I wannna gather up some parts to install all at once when I replace the injectors and fpr. So if I skip head work, and just go with a cam, headers, and a tune, what type of power would I be looking at making? Also, from reading through that huge BBC performance thread, what is a Tech 2/ not sure if it's a scan tool or a tuner.

[1998454]

Tech 2 is a scan tool. If your going to replace the exhaust system i would go with a long tube header. Un coated headers will rust pretty fast, i doubt any paint will reduce temps any noticable amount. As for power, i'm not sure. Depends on the cam and the tune. I don't know how much my truck makes, but with mid length headers and a hand held programmer will do mid 7 second 0-60 times at over 6k lbs. It's enough to be fun to drive.

[V3NOM GTO]

Venom GTO, where did you get your radiator from? I would like to put a better rad in my truck to get away from that little 1" thick rad that is in it now.

Theres a guy on the 454ss.com forum that sells parts. This is one of his. It's a really nice piece, I did a water pump swap along with all new braided stainless lines.

[V3NOM GTO]

http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/GIBGP118S.htm. What about these?
http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/DHRD3397-R.htm or these? Also, if the headers aren't coated, couldn't I just paint them with high temp paint and wouldn't that help keep the temp down under the hood from the headers? Yea, as far as injectors go, the truck has close to 130,000 miles so you are prob right. That's why I wannna gather up some parts to install all at once when I replace the injectors and fpr. So if I skip head work, and just go with a cam, headers, and a tune, what type of power would I be looking at making? Also, from reading through that huge BBC performance thread, what is a Tech 2/ not sure if it's a scan tool or a tuner.

I would never get headers that or uncoated or even painted. They will rust, guaranteed. You can get them Jet hot coated, a little pricey but very nice.

[Miles B]

Make sure your injectors/fpr are solid first. I'd go for headers, muffler, tune. I wouldn't worry about all the little stuff - fans, pulleys etc. The next thing I would aim for is cam and heads.

[95dually]

And for what i'll be using the truck for, would it really be worth droppping prob a grand in just heads or would the stock heads with just a cam and appropriate hardware be sufficient? Or could I pick up a set of complete heads for under or around a grand?

[Miles B]

Depends what you're using it for and what sufficient is to you. Aluminum heads you're looking closer to 2 grand. It's your call. There's a good write up a guy did on the Chevelles board on stock head work. From memory I don't think he got a lot of horsepower out of it for the time invested. I don't recall whether he cut the deck surface. You may actually be better off with new pistons to raise the compression than bothering with head work at all. But I personally wouldn't mess with pulleys or fans. I don't consider them good modifications for the dollar, for power or function.

[V3NOM GTO]

It depends on what your wanting to do. If you're gonna keep the stock rotating assembly then I'd say the Edelbrock 60449's (~$1950) are your only good option (what I'm using). Because they flow really well but have a small combustion chamber and bump the compression a little. If you can change out the pistons than some 781's or 049's (~$500) will be ok as they flow pretty well when ported, but have massive Combustion chambers. Or you can do procomps, they are aluminum on the cheap, still pretty big CC's at around 115cc's or so but they are about $1k complete.

[Miles B]

There are the AFRs too: only another $100 more than the Edelbrocks, cut down to a 102cc chamber.

[V3NOM GTO]

Really got a part number? I didn't know they were that close in price. I'm gonna check those out.


edit: Did some checking and they flow better than the Edelbrocks but have a 107cc chamber, the edelbrocks have a 100cc chamber. I found em as cheap as $1,925 shipped, bout the same price as the edelbrocks. Man, way to throw a monkey wrench into my plans :p , gonna have to really think about these.

[V3NOM GTO]

Links to 2 heads. Note the flow numbers for both. Both as cast, the CNC'd AFR's are WAY above the Eddies

AFR's - http://www.airflowresearch.com/product_info.php?cPath=68_111&products_id=347

Edelbrocks - http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/cylheads/chevy/bb_performer1.shtml

[Miles B]

Yeah the AFR are a better head than the Edelbrock. I'd recommend you talk to Mike Lewis. He can arrange to have AFR mill them down for compression. They also do a CNC port option for another couple hundred. I bought the Brodix through him. I stuck with 115s because I want to strap on a turbo.

[V3NOM GTO]

Where can I get in touch with Mike Lewis.

[Miles B]

I don't know if this violates any rules. I doubt it. I have no affiliation with him but he really went the extra mile for me so I feel like recommending him. Brodix messed my order up a little and he spent a long time chasing it and trying to make it right. Plus his prices are right on, and he knows exactly what to order. Like by default Brodix only install half the valve stem seals!

http://www.lewisracingengines.com/home.html

[1998454]

The edelbrock 454-O high compression head is 100cc. It will not bump the compression on a vortec. It will be the same.
It depends on what your wanting to do. If you're gonna keep the stock rotating assembly then I'd say the Edelbrock 60449's (~$1950) are your only good option (what I'm using). Because they flow really well but have a small combustion chamber and bump the compression a little. If you can change out the pistons than some 781's or 049's (~$500) will be ok as they flow pretty well when ported, but have massive Combustion chambers. Or you can do procomps, they are aluminum on the cheap, still pretty big CC's at around 115cc's or so but they are about $1k complete.

[V3NOM GTO]

I keep forgetting about the small Combustion Chambers on the vortec heads. How much of a drop would it be to go from 100cc - 108cc ?

[Miles B]

What's 108?
The vortec head is 100-102.
The Brodix are 115/119.
I don't know what the AFR are stock, but they can be milled to 102.

I did the math for going vortec to 115 and it was about a full point of compression.

[V3NOM GTO]

Ok the AFR's are 107-108 stock. I'm thinkin I'm gonna go with those seriously. I'm gonna send your guy an email and see what he can do price wise. If it's close to the eddies I'll bite.

[Miles B]

Mike asked me not to repeat the prices he quoted me, but I think you'll be pleased with his pricing and especially service.

[V3NOM GTO]

I understand, I sent him and email asking for a quote on just the heads, and another quote on the heads + him milling them for me. If you talk to him, put in a good word for me. I'm already over budget and the wife will not take to kindly to me going any higher on the heads.

[1998454]

108 down to 100 could be done with a very slight mill if thinner head gaskets are used. If the compression is a little lower you will never notice because you will still be making alot more power with those heads.
Ok the AFR's are 107-108 stock. I'm thinkin I'm gonna go with those seriously. I'm gonna send your guy an email and see what he can do price wise. If it's close to the eddies I'll bite.

[Miles B]

I believe he actually has AFR mill them. The price difference is pretty small. They also do the CNC port option at a reasonable price if you're into it. I'm sure he'll fill you in. He also nailed the prices on rockers, gaskets and ARP hardware for my setup - saved me a few bucks from where I was gonna order those parts.

It's the first time I've bought parts from him, but the service was so good he'll sell me every engine part I buy from now on. I'm happy to pay a little extra if I trust that someone is going to take care of me, but I'll be damned if he didn't come in cheaper than the catalog guys too. He also deals a lot to people in Australia which is good for me if I need stuff airmailed out between ocean containers.

[V3NOM GTO]

If he can match the catalog's I'll buy from they little guy everytime. Nice to hear you had such a good experience with him.

[V3NOM GTO]

108 down to 100 could be done with a very slight mill if thinner head gaskets are used. If the compression is a little lower you will never notice because you will still be making alot more power with those heads.

And the blower, and the cam, and the intake, and the ported TB, and the ... no wait I think that's it. :D I should start takin bets on how long my bottom end is gonna last at 8lbs :whatever:

[Miles B]

If you're putting a blower on it, I'd save the money and keep the larger chambers. I'm going with the 115cc.

[V3NOM GTO]

Its a small blower and I need the small chambers to bump the compression ( stock is in the 7's :( ) Besides my cam is a .561 on the intake side and the AFR 265's are good past .600

[1998454]

The bottom end is pretty strong as long as the rpm's are kept down. I seen a 454 stock bottom end take numerous 350hp nitrous runs. I wouldn't do it, but this guy did and got away with it.

[V3NOM GTO]

I gotcha. That brings up a good point. How low should the RPM's be kept. I was thinkin of keepin em at 5500 or below with Rev limiter at 5750. Opinions?

[1998454]

I wouldn't let it go past 5k until the bottom end is gone through and balanced, better rod bolts and such....but i'm a chicken like that...lol
I gotcha. That brings up a good point. How low should the RPM's be kept. I was thinkin of keepin em at 5500 or below with Rev limiter at 5750. Opinions?

[V3NOM GTO]

I thought they redlined at 5500 from the factory though?

[V3NOM GTO]

Wow I just heard back from Mike. AT MIDNIGHT!!! That's crazy, not only did he contact me in the middle of the night, but layed out all the prices of everything I asked for along with some things I'd missed. And the prices, wow. He told me not to post them so I won't but I won't be shopping at Jegs or Summit if Mike can get whatever I'm needin.

[PonyKiller87]

Being that you guys are talking engine build in here I have a question.

One of the common issues with our 454's seems to be the lifters, between them starting to tick, or the retainers wearing and the lifters starting to turn... they just seem to be a sore spot.

Anyone thought of going to a Retro style lifter with the link bar between 2 lifters? This would eliminate the need for the retainers and the goofy spider thing that holds them down. Also seems that the aftermarket ones seem way beter quality than the stock GM ones. Here's a link to what I'm thinking http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-91167/

[V3NOM GTO]

I just bought a set of those retro fit lifters. I have to because my block doesn't have ability to run roller lifters. I thought the retro fit lifters are way more expensive than just some drop in roller lifters.

[PonyKiller87]

That set that I linked, is only $8 more than the stock GM lifter set at summit. Of course there are higher performance ones where the price starts going up more.

[V3NOM GTO]

Those are good, I hope. They are the ones I bought. The stock ones must be pretty pricey. I'd call comp and see what they reccommend, I don't think you need ones with the link bar though.

[1998454]

When i get around to replacing the cam in mine i will use the retrofit rollers. And if i keep the stock heads i will drill them for 7/16 rocker studs, remove the valve rotators..they may be decent heads after they get updated with 40 year old stuff...lol

[PonyKiller87]

Do you know if anything needs to be done to run those lifters in a stock Mark VI block? Different lenth push rods?

As for the heads, I talked to a couple of places now and they all said the same thing. If you can port them your self, spend time on the exhaust ports, theres not much that can be done on the intake due to the design and its easy to make them flow worse if you don't know what your doing. They also said it wasn't worth the money to do any serious machine work to them like putting bigger valves in. They all said just about any aftermarket head out of the box will be an improvement and cheeper than trying to build up the stock heads.

With that said my plan is to get some old 781 iron heads and build those up. Heads, machine work, and new parts can make these some pretty nasty heads for under $1000


When i get around to replacing the cam in mine i will use the retrofit rollers. And if i keep the stock heads i will drill them for 7/16 rocker studs, remove the valve rotators..they may be decent heads after they get updated with 40 year old stuff...lol

[1998454]

I'm not sure. I'd have to measure them, or get a pushrod length tool. I have been researching these a little http://www.ebay.com/itm/350480141483?item=350480141483&viewitem=&vxp=mtr

[454cid]

Its a small blower and I need the small chambers to bump the compression ( stock is in the 7's......

On what year engine? ...... not a Vortec.

[V3NOM GTO]

Do you know if anything needs to be done to run those lifters in a stock Mark VI block? Different lenth push rods?

As for the heads, I talked to a couple of places now and they all said the same thing. If you can port them your self, spend time on the exhaust ports, theres not much that can be done on the intake due to the design and its easy to make them flow worse if you don't know what your doing. They also said it wasn't worth the money to do any serious machine work to them like putting bigger valves in. They all said just about any aftermarket head out of the box will be an improvement and cheeper than trying to build up the stock heads.

With that said my plan is to get some old 781 iron heads and build those up. Heads, machine work, and new parts can make these some pretty nasty heads for under $1000

I've done alot of research on using GM heads. The end of they the flow numbers and 80lb weight savings of aluminum sold me. But if you are going with a stock head there are ALOT of options and 781 or 049 may not be your best bet. There are quite a few sets of "Large Runner" oval ports that have smaller combustion chambers than the 118-122cc of the 049 or 781's. If you want more info just gimme your email and I'll shoot you by very rough draft of heads research.


On what year engine? ...... not a Vortec.

My truck is an SS, 1990 year model. Mark IV bbc. No definitely not a vortec.

[PonyKiller87]

I actually want the low compression from the 781 heads. Eventually my truck is getting twin turbos and I want to be able to push a lot of boost into it.