What L33 mods to beat a 2004 Vette?

[Drjeffro]

One of my buddies just got a '04 Vette with a Borla exhaust. Just curious what mods to do to an L33 ECRB to beat him if possible.

[kemble]

4k converter, 4.56 gears, eps custom cam, longtubes, custom tune, plate nitrous kit, built trans. This list should be enough.

[Outlawz2004]

Alot.Is the truck 2 or 4wd(truck in sig)? Supercharger(or turbo or nitrous), cam, stall, tune, full bolt ons. I wouldnt bother trying to take out a vette unless you plan on sinking some major cash. And after all that, just to say you beat him. Another one with a couple mods will just come along a wax you.

[1998454]

This http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1109_stock_gm_ls_engine_big_bang_theory/

[Outlawz2004]

This http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1109_stock_gm_ls_engine_big_bang_theory/
that is a beast.

[Drjeffro]

Alot.Is the truck 2 or 4wd(truck in sig)? Supercharger(or turbo or nitrous), cam, stall, tune, full bolt ons. I wouldnt bother trying to take out a vette unless you plan on sinking some major cash. And after all that, just to say you beat him. Another one with a couple mods will just come along a wax you.

That is all true. I figured it would be alot. I was just thinking how funny it would be to do some mods that he didn't know about, then smoke him.

Also my truck is 4wd.

[Outlawz2004]

pull a few of his plug wires, that should do it.

[Busted Knuckles]

Forget beating him in a race. Make it a two part contest. Race first, then have a towing/hauling contest. You'll win #2 and it will be a draw.

[Koots]

TURBO!

I say turbo the motor, build yourself a nice 4L80E, 14FF rear and you'd scare him occasionally. Just enough to question the badassedness of his new Vette :cool: But i'm sure he would have you smoked before you get to 70MPH and beyond. You could build it to hold or slightly beat him until then though and i think that would be enough.

After that and you will have to start making bigger changes to get anywhere without breaking **** :D

[Macedawg]

Forget beating him in a race. Make it a two part contest. Race first, then have a towing/hauling contest. You'll win #2 and it will be a draw.

don't forget the off-road course and then inclement weather, the vette would lose for sure :lol:

[Quyonmob]

Shed 2400lbs, add 100hp to even be on the same page.

[Drjeffro]

pull a few of his plug wires, that should do it.

I did that to a motorcycle one time. It was hilarious.

I think undertaking the Vette smoking project is going to be tooo much right now. I would like to do some long tubes and get a Black Bear Tune though. What are the results differences between long tubes and short? And what brand of long tubes do you recomend?

[Outlawz2004]

I run the pacesetters, they have been on for about four or five years now. No problems with them, shorty headers wont do much over the factory manifolds. Alot of people have had good results with the ebay headers, but on some 4x4s they hit in some places. They are said to be the old style dynatechs before they made the adjustments for better fitment.

[Koots]

I can't recommend a brand (other than i hear Dough Thorley Tri-Y's are good) but i would choose LT's whenever possible, as they flow better and make more power where it matters...everywhere in the RPM range. Shorties are only for those who must retain stock emissions configuration, like for inspections, testing, etc.

It will allow you to add more flow, but keep the stock cats in the stock place and then you add a catback exhaust to get as much extra performance as legally possible. If that's not an issue, run LT's, run a dual exhaust setup like the 2500HD's i've seen (gassers) that runs into a DI/DO muffler and one single exit pipe. I've bent and destroyed my original pipe, welded up a number of cracks and cut it all off after the muffler on mine. You can have one big muffler or two smaller mufflers for each pipe, run a crossover (X or H pipe) or not and run dual exits or Y-pipe into one single exit. That is up to you.

LT's can be had for cheaper too, surprisingly. Plus, based on the manifolds on my LQ4, they are pretty much like cast iron shorties anyway, so you would only be saving weight and making it look prettier by going with shorties IMO

[Quyonmob]

Shorties hardly flow any better than the tubular LS manifolds. LT headers though... :burn:

[kemble]

Search calspeed headers on your favorite search engine.

[Drjeffro]

I have never done anything with the front end of the exhaust. What all needs done to put long tubes in, can it be done in the driveway with basic tools or am I looking at a trip to the exhaust shop?

[kemble]

Its very easy, the only problem bad part is getting the old bolts out. Sometimes they all come out, sometimes some break. I did mine in the driveway with handtools in a couple of hours taking it easy.

[Drjeffro]

Its very easy, the only problem bad part is getting the old bolts out. Sometimes they all come out, sometimes some break. I did mine in the driveway with handtools in a couple of hours taking it easy.

How do you get the bolts out if the break? Would it be better to replace the bolts with studs instead? I checked out the Pacesetters with the offroad y-pipe. Would I have to make any other mods to the exhaust farther down the line or will it all bolt up to the stock pipe?

[BOTMAN]

GT4088 would get you there :looking:

[Honey Bear]

The secret to winning at anything is playing to your strengths and his weaknesses. Put 4000 pounds in the back of each vehicle and then race on a dirt road.

[kemble]

How do you get the bolts out if the break? Would it be better to replace the bolts with studs instead? I checked out the Pacesetters with the offroad y-pipe. Would I have to make any other mods to the exhaust farther down the line or will it all bolt up to the stock pipe?

Depends on which if any break. Easy outs work good. No other mods needed for longtubes, hooks straight to the factory or aftermarket catback.

[Drjeffro]

Depends on which if any break. Easy outs work good. No other mods needed for longtubes, hooks straight to the factory or aftermarket catback.

Awesome. Hopefully when I do it, none break. Would the aluminum block of the L33 have a steel insert that they thread into or does it go straight into aluminum?

[kemble]

Aluminum heads. I replaced my factory bolts with hardened replacements coated with antisieze.

[Koots]

Aluminum heads. I replaced my factory bolts with hardened replacements coated with antisieze.

Nothing wrong with some extra clamping force on those heads! :cheer:

[kemble]

I had a stock bolt pop a head off, somewhere around 125k miles. The supplied bolts felt like junk with my ebay headers. So before installation I picked up new oem gaskets and the good bolts. No leaks even missing one bolt (broken bolt is 2 threads inside head).

[Drjeffro]

I was thinking heads, but typed block, opps. For the price of the Pacesetters I think that is what I will do.

[kemble]

I went with stainless to ensure rust wouldn't be a problem. Catback is stainless as well.

[Drjeffro]

I went with stainless to ensure rust wouldn't be a problem. Catback is stainless as well.

Stainless hardware?

[kemble]

Stainless hardware in everything except for header to head bolts. Stainless and aluminum don't go together well.

[Zero260]

I'd get a higher stall torque converter over the headers. And then the tune. Of course if you have the money, do both.

[Drjeffro]

What are the improvements of a higher stall? Does it just rev higher before the converter kicks in? I looked at my exhaust this morning, I have a cat on each side pretty much right off the manifolds, so to do the long tubes I would have to move the cats to the end of the onlg tube, the off-road y-pipe off the cats, the chop out excess pipe to button everything together. Does that sound about right?

[kemble]

Search just a little. This stuff gets answered about 25 times a week. Simply put the converter gets your engine to the powerband quicker and keeps it there lo her. If you have to pass emissions buy a catted header setup, if no emissions buy a non catted setup and install with no cats.

The circle d 278mm 3000-3200 converter drives just about stock during normal cruising.

[Drjeffro]

Does a catted header have the cats in the middle or at the end? Is the cat replaceable if it goes bad?

[Quyonmob]

Jeebus...

Just like OE, the cats will be in the header manufacturer's y-pipe, but whole header y-pipe configuration will be visually different from OE.

[Drjeffro]

Jeebus...

Just like OE, the cats will be in the header manufacturer's y-pipe, but whole header y-pipe configuration will be visually different from OE.

I got it now. Like a ra-tard I was still picturing a longer y-pipe like what is on there now and thought I would have to shorten everyting else.

[Quyonmob]

I got it now. Like a ra-tard I was still picturing a longer y-pipe like what is on there now and thought I would have to shorten everyting else.

Just check out some product pics on line.

[phoebeisis]

Don't those Corvettes do 0-60 in 4 seconds-maybe 11 second quarter miles??
To beat that with a not much weight over the drive wheels 5500 lb 4 speed pickup???
I'm guessing it might take 800 hp to get 4 second 0-60- or an 11 second quarter(11.8 maybe)if you could get the power to the pavement-and the right gearing.The very fat tires you would need for this would be a dead giveway!
Full on Nascar small block motors make that kind of power at 9000 rpms-but they aren't good for 100,000 miles.
Guessing they cost maybe $50,000- probably more.
Forget about beating any recent vintage Vette-maybe you could beat a 1974-1984 Vette-they were slow-under 300 rwhp-probably only 200 hp in the mid late 1970's.
Charlie

[Zero260]

I'm guessing .
Charlie

You should probably stop doing that.

'04 c5 has a ls1 powerplant. Its probably a high 12s car, bone stock. It doesn't take 800 rwhp for his truck to do that.

[Drjeffro]

Don't those Corvettes do 0-60 in 4 seconds-maybe 11 second quarter miles??
To beat that with a not much weight over the drive wheels 5500 lb 4 speed pickup???
I'm guessing it might take 800 hp to get 4 second 0-60- or an 11 second quarter(11.8 maybe)if you could get the power to the pavement-and the right gearing.The very fat tires you would need for this would be a dead giveway!
Full on Nascar small block motors make that kind of power at 9000 rpms-but they aren't good for 100,000 miles.
Guessing they cost maybe $50,000- probably more.
Forget about beating any recent vintage Vette-maybe you could beat a 1974-1984 Vette-they were slow-under 300 rwhp-probably only 200 hp in the mid late 1970's.
Charlie

I have pretty much abandoned the idea, unless I win the lottery. However this is giving me some good ideas of stuff to do in the future to get alot more out of the truck.

[nick613]

Don't those Corvettes do 0-60 in 4 seconds-maybe 11 second quarter miles??To beat that with a not much weight over the drive wheels 5500 lb 4 speed pickup???
I'm guessing it might take 800 hp to get 4 second 0-60- or an 11 second quarter(11.8 maybe)if you could get the power to the pavement-and the right gearing.The very fat tires you would need for this would be a dead giveway!
Full on Nascar small block motors make that kind of power at 9000 rpms-but they aren't good for 100,000 miles.
Guessing they cost maybe $50,000- probably more.
Forget about beating any recent vintage Vette-maybe you could beat a 1974-1984 Vette-they were slow-under 300 rwhp-probably only 200 hp in the mid late 1970's.
Charlie

Werent the 04s still running an Ls1? Don't think they were that quick

[Drjeffro]

Werent the 04s still running an Ls1? Don't think they were that quick

Yes. I think stock numbers are 350 hp and 375 torque.

[Outlawz2004]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette_C5_Z06

[nick613]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette_C5_Z06

Guess they are that quick....

[Zero260]

^thought we were talking about a 2004 c5?

A '04 z06 has better flowing heads with lighter valves, a better flowing intake, and a bigger cam.

[phoebeisis]

The Corvette had gotten pretty quick in some versions by 2004.
I'm not a Corvette person- but I think the fastest ones were about as quick as that REALLY fast 4 valve head V-8 that GM
commissioned from someone else a few years before-
The one Clarence Thomas has??
The current "best" pushrod SBC Corvette-(if you can even call a 427 a SBC) is much faster than that supercar-maybe .5 sec
in the quarter
Hard to believe they can get that acceleration and still get an honest 25mpg at 60 mph on the hy(maybe better)
Tough to match a pickup against a Corvette
5000 lbs vs 3600 lbs
.3cd vs .45 cd
Drag= frontal area multiplied by CD maybe 6x4x.3 vs 7x6x.45
Too little traction too much power
A street legal full weight full trim(AC etc) pickup -to run low 12 high 11-how common are they?
My suspicion is any 11 second pickup is a drag race "car" with 15" wide tires
Don't those Diesels pickups that do 11's claim 1000-1100 hp-something crazy like that??Loud enough to wake the dead??

Charlie
PS when I win the powerball I'll just get a Yukon XL Denali- if I show up with an Escalade relatives friends will KNOW I won
the Lottery!! Heck I'm so cheap I might just get a 2006 5.3 Suburban!!

[Drjeffro]

I don't know what kind of numbers his puts down, but when I put it to the floor it hooked quick and came in to the power fast. I was impressed. He wouldn't let me turn the TC off, especially since he had only had it for a day at that point. I have never been a big Vette guy, buy it is tough to argue with the performance, with the exception of the gas crunch era Vettes. The first thing I thought of is the look on his face if I smoked him in the Silverado, but then reality hit and I now realize how much would be involved to even get close.

[phoebeisis]

Yeah he would be stunned
But since you would need 15"wide tires it wouldn't be too much of a surprise!!
When I win the powerball I'll just buy a Corvette and maybe I will get a ESV Escalade-heck with the relatives!
Yeah my signature will change to ESVman!
Charlie

[loudandproud]

Those vettes are faster than you think.

To beat a stock LS1 vette... I say you'd need 650-700rwhp... good stall 4.10's and some traction.

So in otherwords... A BIG WALLET.

Probably cheaper to buy a used vette than to make your truck beat one.

[DieselPower]

The Corvette had gotten pretty quick in some versions by 2004.
They've always been pretty fast. Even the ones from the 70's were geared to make them scoot reasonably well in the days of 55 mph speed limits.


I'm not a Corvette person- but I think the fastest ones were about as quick as that REALLY fast 4 valve head V-8 that GM
commissioned from someone else a few years before-
The one Clarence Thomas has??
ZR1? The Lotus-design heads? They were good in their day, but the newer Corvettes put them to shame.


The current "best" pushrod SBC Corvette-(if you can even call a 427 a SBC) is much faster than that supercar-maybe .5 sec
in the quarter
Hard to believe they can get that acceleration and still get an honest 25mpg at 60 mph on the hy(maybe better)
Gearing and aerodynamics... I understand the newer ones do better than 25 mpg, I could do that in my '89. Highway cruising (@55 mph!) was below 1300 rpm.


Don't those Diesels pickups that do 11's claim 1000-1100 hp-something crazy like that??Loud enough to wake the dead??
And more. Cummins and Duramaxes seem to hit 10 seconds often enough, and while their hp numbers may seem low (1000 hp...!), their torque levels are much, much higher.

Even if you toss all of the money and nitrous possible into the truck, the moment a slight curve approaches, the Corvette wins. You have to pick the right tool for the job and for a street race, a Corvette makes for a pretty hard target. Add a little sand, mud and a rough surface and suddenly the truck becomes the better tool.

[phoebeisis]

Cars from about 1974-1985 or so- were really slow-until EFI and Electronic ignitions(came much earlier than EFI) were
adequately developed to allow the OEMs to meet EPA regs AND MAKE HP.
I remember being stunned that those mid 1975 -1976 455 Pontiac Trans Ams(with the bird on the hood) only made about 215 hp-in 1973 they still made 310hp(looked it up in Chilton)
In 1975-76 the 454 Corvette made 215HP !! Best 350 made a wopping 205 hp!! They actually sold Corvettes with 145 hp
2 barrel 350's.Pretty sure that is why those years are worth soooo little! Still put a GM Performance crate 350 in and you
have a real Corvette for not much $$.
Seems like it was maybe 1986 when HP performance finally recovered-not sure which year Chevy hit 300hp again- maybe
1990 or so??

[Koots]

Guess they are that quick....

I think it was Super Chevy magazine or something like that, that tested out a stock Z06 (it was a year old, at the time) and did nothing but put better fresh tires on it and got it into the 11's for a few runs. Which isn't bad, if you ask me.

[DieselPower]

Cars from about 1974-1985 or so- were really slow-until EFI and Electronic ignitions(came much earlier than EFI) were
adequately developed to allow the OEMs to meet EPA regs AND MAKE HP.
They were also smogged to death and had no compression. Fuel injection wasn't the problem, but it did solve the cleaner burning requirements.


I remember being stunned that those mid 1975 -1976 455 Pontiac Trans Ams(with the bird on the hood) only made about 215 hp-in 1973 they still made 310hp(looked it up in Chilton)
In 1975-76 the 454 Corvette made 215HP !! Best 350 made a wopping 205 hp!! They actually sold Corvettes with 145 hp
2 barrel 350's.Pretty sure that is why those years are worth soooo little! Still put a GM Performance crate 350 in and you
have a real Corvette for not much $$.
Power ratings were also altered, net vs gross - which adds to the discrepancy. The Corvette stopped getting big blocks around 1974.


Seems like it was maybe 1986 when HP performance finally recovered-not sure which year Chevy hit 300hp again- maybe
1990 or so??
1985 GNX made a heck of a start on that power issue! We started seeing ~250 hp again around 1990. I think it was 1992 with the LT1 for the 300 hp Corvette.

It's almost funny now - we have power numbers that actually exceed the 1969-1970 former peak levels, we have OD transmissions, reasonable MPG numbers - and fuel prices that are projected to crack $5/gallon this year. What's most likely going to be in demand are NOT these high hp machines, but little sub-2 liter econoboxes that can deliver 40+ mpg.

[phoebeisis]

It was 1972 when they changed TO NET HP.
The highest hp 350 in 1971 made 330hp 5600 rpms 9/1
The highest hp 350 in 1972 made 255 hp 5600 rpms 9/1
My 1998 Suburban makes the same HP(WELL 250) probably 600 rpms lower.
Like you say-EFI+ sensors(MAI O2) doesn't make more peak power than a carb- but it allows you to meet EPA regs and make HP. It also will allow better throttle response and better power band-so it can make you faster/quicker.
EFI and sensors computer controls are why Corvettes literally make 2x the power and 2.5x the mpg than they did in 1972 with "almost" the same motor-(ok that is a lie the current SBC is a very efficient motor- better everything-less hp wasted to
friction)
Hard to believe GM beats/matches the various 4 valve DOHC motors with a pushrod 2 valve head.The 2 valve pushrods
MIGHT even be lower friction- inherently more efficient (at most rpms) than the 4 valve motors
Hard to believe old tech can match new tech- but it seems to.
Now Ford with the 3.5 dual turbo V-6 has jumped ahead- but not clear just how reliable a dual turbo motor will be-we'll see
Charlie
PS-Those mid 70- mid 80's carbed V-8's frequently had off idle stumbles and other holes that were tough to fix without removing all the pollution gear and going aftermarket carb etc.
PPS Our 2006 Prius literally gets 50 mpg by just setting the CC to 65mph and pointing it
40 mpg city just driving it
98 Suburban gets 20 mpg at 63 mph -just set CC and point-pretty good for 5200 lb 218,000 mile brick!

[Benny00Z71]

I'd love to see/hear when you get the long tubes :naughty: