7.4 cold air intake

[chevy05]

I rember in the monster post there was some info about cold air intakes and the good ones and the bad ones. I rember were people said about buying fernco and pvc and make a better flowing intake hose. I figured since we have a section know maybe we could post some info in here about what works and what does not. I still have not done my since I can not find the info in that big post. I would like to change it around for some extra power and mpg. I know on other viechles that I have done cold air intakes they have helped with mpg.

[PonyKiller87]

I consolidated some of the info from this thread on cold air intakes on my web site.

http://www.vortec454.com/index_files/Page405.htm

['05TJLWBRUBY]

In all seriousness and "cool factor" aside, what is a CAI kit actually gaining you on the 454? Are you actually seeing better mileage numbers? How are you pulling cold air to the intake? I don't consider any under hood air as "cold air". I built a custom cowl intake for my Jeep which acts as a true cold air intake as it comes direct from air at base of windshield, goes through a Mustang Cobra filter and dumps to TB from there. Needed fender clearance so had to ditch the factory setup, so this made sense and seems to work well. Absolutely was NOT done for any idea of performance gains. On the 454 however, I was dumbfounded at the design of the factory air system on my '97 3/4 ton Suburban. All kinds of little air boxes and voids, hidden compartments and various other areas for air to get trapped in. Aside from a more natural air flow design, the factory designed that system to deliver enough air for the engine needs. While it definitely isn't a "ram air" type effect, What benefits are you seriously gaining with a CAI kit and have comparisons been done using a scan gauge or something similar comparing the differences between stock setup and any aftermarket CAI kit to prove colder air is indeed reaching the intake? I'm in need of some exhaust work, cats, muffler, etc. and am basically planning to do injectors, FPR and tune at the same time. While the factory design doesn't make sense to me, is there enough gain to notice in a CAI kit and would I benefit from either buying or building my own at the time of the rest of the work I do here? Trying to make the Suburban as reliable and efficient as it can be as it's a DD. Cleaning up all the little "maintenance" items to get it in top running condition will help a good bit. If this combination may help pick up a few mpg increase, it would be worth it. If not, I'll leave it well enough alone and do what I know needs done.

Thanks,

Best of Luck,

Mike

[PonyKiller87]

Your right the factory air box is kind of crazy, but it was built that way to help make the engine quiet, and keep the engine heat out of the intake air. The factory box is fed from a whole in the fender, and the fender is fed from a plastic tube thing behind the lights. The factory setup works, but its not ideal.

If you look at the link I posted above you can see my setup. Its pretty much a filter on the end of a peice of straight pipe. There was a deffinate noticable increase in power and my scanner was showing about 20 HP more at peak. How ever there are some down sides. I haven't made a box around the filter yet which would keep the engine temps out and just that cool air from the fender in. So with that said in the summer its not uncommon for my Intake Air Temps to get up around 140 which is horrable for power, as soon as it goes over 100 the computer starts pulling out timing and killing power. The other thing that I don't mind but some people wont like is that the intake is loud now. When you floor it you hear a very loud sucking noise coming from the front of the truck.

So in short, yes it does help, if you build it right or buy a good one. Once I finally build a box around my filter I would consider it a good system.

[durbo.jones]

I hear a loud sucking sound when I floor it in my truck with the "intake" that I have.......:cool:

[PonyKiller87]

Lol, sucking or blowing?

Can't wait to have the twins mounted in the bed under my tool box, wonder how crazy that will sound when I jump on it.

[99urbansuburban]

I have the k&n fipk setup, I feel sotp dyno results along with snappier throttle response, I will post pics when I get it all back together. but it is ALOT noisier above 3k rpm

['05TJLWBRUBY]

Was just checking your link again with the comparisons. I guess I misunderstood the K&N and Volant setups-incorrectly assuming they went strait to the TB but then noticed you mentioned they retain the factory elbow there.

I'm quoting your planned install here:

"There are 2 other parts of the intake system that hold it back. The Throttle Body (TB) and the Mass Air Flow sensor (MAF).
The stock TB has a 72mm or 2.83” interior diameter. The stock MAF is right around the same size.

In my new intake setup I am installing an 85mm TB and 85mm MAF, and jumping the pipe size up to 4”, Boxing out the filter, making the scoop to the fender, and I have a new ram air hood that will also dump into the air box."

My question is, have you done this yet??? If so, what do you think? Having just noticed this, your plan is almost exactly what I had in mind should I have built my own for this rig-well, minus the hood setup. I hadn't considered that.

With my Jeep setup, one thing that I learned and spoke in depth with about to the guys at K&N specifically and mostly, but also talked with a few other big name guys as well. Size of the air filter has a BIG influence on sound levels as if the filter isn't sized appropriately, you'll get more noise and even whistling from too small a filter. I had those exact problems on the Jeep at the start, not to mention a loss in power and loss in mpg. Simply by changing design and stepping up to a larger filter, I gained MPG, performance and lost the sound/noise and whistle. The Jeep needs something like 440CFM assuming 80% volumetric efficiency if I recall correctly so I stepped up to a common off the shelf Mustang Cobra paper Wix filter that flows just over 500CFM. Worked GREAT and eliminated all my issues with smaller filers.

I like that you mentioned stepping up in size to the 4" stuff-that is exactly what I'd considered, along with bigger filter size. Granted I haven't looked into sizing anything yet but that will be the next step once I decide if I want to tackle this or not.

I'm really curious what you come up with on design of a front scoop or air entry setup. I haven't looked too close yet but that's kinda where I'm stuck and haven't looked too hard at things yet. I want full water protection-not so much for wheeling use as that's what the Jeep is for, but we get a lot of rain and snow and I don't want any moisture getting to the filter media. I have first hand experience with that with the Jeep and want this as protected as possible from water-in any form. That's the biggest negative as far as I'm concerned for any of the K&N type cold air kits and where they need the biggest improvements in design.

Anyway, curious on if you have done what you originally planned yet and how it came out, if you're happy with it. Good info, Thanks!

Best of Luck,

Mike

[PonyKiller87]

Unfortunatly I've been really busy lately and just don't get time to work on the truck. So as of now I haven't done the TB and MAF like I plan to, it still looks just like in the piciture on my site. I have all the parts, just have to find the time to do it.

As for your water issue, I know what you mean, I use this truck to plow and snow gets everywhere. Best thing you can do with a K&N or similar is use the pre filter sock thing. It does a really good job of catching snow/water and keeping it from going in the filter as long as it doesn't get submerged.

[N0DIH]

Just remember, with a larger TB you will end up with shorter shift points due to the lesser TPS position % you will drive with. So you might end up not being very happy with it.

Will need to be tuned to accomodate it.

[chevy05]

I am not going to go with a larger tb due to have read about other problems on another forum. I am just going to to get rid of vortec box ontop of the tb and all the bends in the air intake from the tb to the air box. I have looked on vortec454 site but not really shows any pictures using the factory box with a better hose. Unlless the box is that bad then I will have to make my own plate with foam to touch hood while it is closed to only suck air from fender. Not really into paying for the over priced k&n filters there are aftermaket that are about 1/4 the price. I remember in the big post that there were a picture of what pvc elbow and ferncos to use to just remove the twisted up hose.

[N0DIH]

Personally, I would NOT get rid of the resonator at the throttle body. That will hurt performance. These are tuned intakes, most people think those are for noise control like the old mufflers they stuck on the intakes of the L19's and Caddy 500's, but these are actually a specific tuned volume just before the throttle blade which actually boosts flow higher than what would be if it wasn't there.

The one by the air filter I don't think hurts or helps power, just noise.

I'll see if I can find the detailed explanation, which is over my head, I have a basic understanding, but to someone who knows fluid dynamics, it would be a piece of cake and probably very obvious.

[99urbansuburban]

I would be very interested in knowing more on this

[N0DIH]

Take a read here, this is good info on Acoustic Resonators.

http://planetsoarer.com/resonator/resonator.html

This link is referenced in the first link.

http://planetsoarer.com/resonator/ResonatorsAcoustic.htm

[99urbansuburban]

wow, that is all great but why is it my suburban feels more responsive with a k&n fipk over the stock box setup? I feel the stock set up is more ram air style and cleans better, but kinda doggish like. What would be the best drop in filter?

[N0DIH]

I haven't seen one to know, but anything that can straighten out the airflow between the filter and the TB is gonna help, and there are some awful bends in the stock system.

Would need to test with/without the box on a stock setup and on a modified setup. So that is 4 separate tests.

Stone stock
Stock with resonator removed
Aftermarket with resonator
Aftermarket with resonator removed

And see what ends up best.

Remember too, that the resonator on the engine at the TB won't have a huge effect on the noise, but it will on flow. The key is it is AFTER the MAF, and the MAF will see the pulsations from the pistons/valves moving up/down.

Before MAF I feel the differences would be minimal for flow, but more for noise.

Think of it like an intake manifold by adding volume. If it is able to use up the volume too quickly it will hurt power. I have thoughts, but I am not sure how to describe them. Think of pouring your engine oil out of the drain pan into a gallon jug with a funnel. If you don't fill up the funnel and just pour at the rate it drains it in, it will flow x gallons per minute, but if you fill the funnel and keep it full, it will never go low on flow, it will have that pressure right there helping push it in, so it will flow >x gallons per min. If that makes sense?

Anyone better describe it?

[xch3no2]

MAF's hate intake resonance, resonance is accentuated by smaller volumes and a straight shot between TB & the MAF.

[99urbansuburban]

so are you saying maf don't like straight tube intakes

['05TJLWBRUBY]

Wow, great reads there-Thanks! Exactly the kind of thing I'd been hoping to see originally with a "difference" or not. Also helps explain between the Jeep and the Suburban. The Jeep is about as old school as it can be with the 4.0 and strait intake, no resonators or anything like that. I had no idea that box on the Sub had anything to do with performance and incorrectly assumed it was more of sound deadening type stuff. While I'm sure I could easily make a straiter flowing system for the Sub, I doubt it would be worth while given this info here. Looking at it another way-the Sub has 190K+ on it so how much more can I really expect out of it anyway??? Probably not enough to warrant time involved in building something. Think I'll leave the intake well enough alone, fix up the exhaust, injectors, etc. and run it till it's days are done.

So given that, what then do the separate side boxes off the factory filter box do? Pre-MAF obviously, act as a pressure equilibration zone type thing then-kind of similar to the resonator but unseen? Interesting stuff.

Best of Luck,

Mike

[N0DIH]

MAF's love straight tubes, they are far more accurate with around 6 inches before/after the MAF that is straight, that is about the only condition it is ok to take out the MAF laminar flow screens. Else the air is coming in at angles and has to smack the screen to straighten it out to read correctly.


so are you saying maf don't like straight tube intakes

[99urbansuburban]

so all the screen does is straighten out flow, is it restrictive? interesting.

[N0DIH]

Some claim it is, I don't think so, we don't turn enough rpm to max out the MAF we have now, so the screen isn't really a problem.

If you want bigger, go with a LS1/LS6/Gen III/Gen IV truck MAF. They are larger. I have one, haven't feel the need to put on, same with TB, we aren't maxing them out, no where close really. So more of a waste of $.

And the aftermarket MAF's are often so bad for accuracy it hurts everything.


so all the screen does is straighten out flow, is it restrictive? interesting.

[99urbansuburban]

I am getting a blackbear tune done in march, should I use the stock intake or leave the noisey k&n fipk on.

[N0DIH]

All depends on if you like the noise or not. I had a homemade underhood breathing intake (lousy for heat ingestion), and the noise was pretty strong at times. My wife wasn't so amused. One of these days I will do something else like move battery to driver's side and pull air from behind the headlights.


I am getting a blackbear tune done in march, should I use the stock intake or leave the noisey k&n fipk on.

[99urbansuburban]

I like the setup, but not the noise so much or the fact of the oily K&n not doing a great job. any filter suggestions?

[N0DIH]

Amsoil has a dry filter that flows good, I think some other companies do. The Fram Airhog (if it is still around) is crap at filtering, you can SEE right thru it. And it is an oil wetted filter too.

I use the stock filter for the truck, the Wix that is the HD filtering one. More surface area, it doesn't seem to show as a restriction on the MAP sensor at WOT, so I just don't worry about it.

[xch3no2]

MAF's love straight tubes, they are far more accurate with around 6 inches before/after the MAF that is straight, that is about the only condition it is ok to take out the MAF laminar flow screens. Else the air is coming in at angles and has to smack the screen to straighten it out to read correctly.

MAF's DON'T like straight shots to the TB and that is that, do some research.

In no case is it advisable to remove screens.

[N0DIH]

Greg Banish talks about it in his books, what you are saying contradicts it. Where are you getting your info?

Anytime air bends it slows down and has more restriction to flow. Straight shot is the best to have.


MAF's DON'T like straight shots to the TB and that is that, do some research.

In no case is it advisable to remove screens.

[1998454]

He didn't say it had to be a straight shot to the tb, although it would be desirable. He stated 6" fore and aft of the mass air. I do know it is not advised to have the mass air too close to the tb to avoid turbulence behind it.
MAF's DON'T like straight shots to the TB and that is that, do some research.

In no case is it advisable to remove screens.

[454cid]

I like the setup, but not the noise so much or the fact of the oily K&n not doing a great job. any filter suggestions?

I've got a Fram Washable. They were calling them Synwash when I bought mine. They're a dry syntheic filter. I haven't washed mine yet, but it seems to be a quality filter.

[454cid]

My MAF is descreened. I did it when it was the bandwagon "mod". It makes it much much easier to clean the thing.

[durbo.jones]

MAF's DON'T like straight shots to the TB and that is that, do some research.

In no case is it advisable to remove screens.

You need to do some research. Every book written about tuning and every prominent tuner in the country will tell you that the more straight airflow before and after the MAF will get more accurate airflow readings due to lack of turbulence. Check your info before you run your suck.

[xch3no2]

I never mentioned the MAF intake, or the area immediately after the MAF, re-read my post and see if you can post something sensible.

[N0DIH]

Hence the Helmholz Resonator between the MAF and the TB. Exactly why I was saying it hurts power to take it out. Read the article I posted links to.

But yes, you want clean airflow in/out of the MAF. You need to, anything else distrurbs the critical MAF sensor readings. But the Helmholz resonator as close to the TB as you can helps airflow.




I never mentioned the MAF intake, or the area immediately after the MAF....

[454cid]

Hence the Helmholz Resonator between the MAF and the TB. Exactly why I was saying it hurts power to take it out. Read the article I posted links to.

Helmholz Resonator? I've heard of that in relation to audio, never air intakes......... I guess I should go read that article.

What is the Helmholz Resonator, the "Vortec" box on top of the engine?

[durbo.jones]

Helmholz Resonator? I've heard of that in relation to audio, never air intakes......... I guess I should go read that article.

What is the Helmholz Resonator, the "Vortec" box on top of the engine?

It is also used in Exhaust. The new Camaro has mufflers that utilize the Helmholz principal.

[N0DIH]

Yup, that be it. I had some specs on the LT1 B/D body one, what freq it was tuned to.


Helmholz Resonator? I've heard of that in relation to audio, never air intakes......... I guess I should go read that article.

What is the Helmholz Resonator, the "Vortec" box on top of the engine?

[454cid]

Yup, that be it. I had some specs on the LT1 B/D body one, what freq it was tuned to.

I've read one of the articles and figured it was the box. Darn...... Now I can't get rid of that thing, and I've never really liked, and always wanted to get rid of it. :-(

I did have it removed, and plugged for awhile, but the plug was a bit too small, and I eventually became more dis-satified with the PCV plug, than I was with the Vortec box, so I re-installed the box. At least the Vortec box makes a good place to put my hand when leaning over the hot engine in the summer.

[454cid]

It is also used in Exhaust. The new Camaro has mufflers that utilize the Helmholz principal.

That seems odd to me. In the first article it was stated that the resonator was useful because the intake was feeding a piston engine....... a cyclicial affair, rather than steady flow. I would have thought that a muffler, especailly one at the rear (assuming that's where it is on the new car) would be more similar to steady flow.

[N0DIH]

I was hoping to get rid of it myself, just clean it up and make it look better.

The odd thing, 3800's never had the resonator. The MAF is integrated into the TB, so no way to put one, but still, if there was advantages, you would think they would have used the V8 MAF's and added it. Cost trumps performance?


I've read one of the articles and figured it was the box. Darn...... Now I can't get rid of that thing, and I've never really liked, and always wanted to get rid of it. :-(

I did have it removed, and plugged for awhile, but the plug was a bit too small, and I eventually became more dis-satified with the PCV plug, than I was with the Vortec box, so I re-installed the box. At least the Vortec box makes a good place to put my hand when leaning over the hot engine in the summer.

[N0DIH]

Throwing my audio hat on, I have been wanting to design some subs for church and they all add the ports and chambers to allow for lower frequency. So maybe they are tuning for sound not so much flow? Or is it a way to allow a cushion of volume to allow for smaller mufflers instead of larger and get the same flow output?


That seems odd to me. In the first article it was stated that the resonator was useful because the intake was feeding a piston engine....... a cyclicial affair, rather than steady flow. I would have thought that a muffler, especailly one at the rear (assuming that's where it is on the new car) would be more similar to steady flow.

[454cid]

Throwing my audio hat on, I have been wanting to design some subs for church and they all add the ports and chambers to allow for lower frequency. So maybe they are tuning for sound not so much flow? Or is it a way to allow a cushion of volume to allow for smaller mufflers instead of larger and get the same flow output?

I think the Helmholtz Resonator in audio is seldom used. If I recall correctly it was to tune a cabinet to a frequncy range, as opposed to a specific frequency. A tuned port that you see in many cabinets is not a Helmholtz resonator, if my thinking is correct. I need to read that other article and/or refresh my memory of what exactly a Helmholtz resonator is.

It must be that the Camaro pipe length is short enough that the engine pulses don't smooth out enough to be steady flowing.

[454cid]

I was hoping to get rid of it myself, just clean it up and make it look better.

The odd thing, 3800's never had the resonator. The MAF is integrated into the TB, so no way to put one, but still, if there was advantages, you would think they would have used the V8 MAF's and added it. Cost trumps performance?

The one article did mentioned that if sufficiently large the intake piping didn't need the resonator. It could be that the piping is sufficiently large in comparison to the 3800 demands.

[N0DIH]

You are probably right, I assumed it was, seemed like same principal though.

I don't recall specifically what Helmholtz's principals were. If I ever really knew. I have a book from Yamaha that is fantastic, but long hard reading.... I'll have to look.


I think the Helmholtz Resonator in audio is seldom used. If I recall correctly it was to tune a cabinet to a frequncy range, as opposed to a specific frequency. A tuned port that you see in many cabinets is not a Helmholtz resonator, if my thinking is correct. I need to read that other article and/or refresh my memory of what exactly a Helmholtz resonator is.

It must be that the Camaro pipe length is short enough that the engine pulses don't smooth out enough to be steady flowing.

[1998454]

I guess i need to track down a resonator. My truck didn't have it when i got it.
Take a read here, this is good info on Acoustic Resonators.

http://planetsoarer.com/resonator/resonator.html

This link is referenced in the first link.

http://planetsoarer.com/resonator/ResonatorsAcoustic.htm

[N0DIH]

I would love to have some dyno time to see the difference on the whole powercurve.

K&N has some data, but if you read the fine print they GUESS a lot.

When I get my cats done and timing set and injectors I might do some dyno time on it and see what I come up with. Or at the very least, do some track time, that is more fun.... :)




I guess i need to track down a resonator. My truck didn't have it when i got it.

[1998454]

If I can get one I will do some 0-60 runs to see if there's any difference. I have tried a few things and need to post some more video. The tb spacer on v/s off, average of 4 runs each, the tb spacer is 100% useless.

[N0DIH]

Is yours just plugged?

You can make something, it just needs the volume. I could pull mine off and fill it with water to determine the volume of it.


If I can get one I will do some 0-60 runs to see if there's any difference. I have tried a few things and need to post some more video. The tb spacer on v/s off, average of 4 runs each, the tb spacer is 100% useless.

[1998454]

No, mine has the k&n kit that is just a plastic tube with silicone boots. It's just a straight shot to the filter with no oem parts.
Is yours just plugged?

You can make something, it just needs the volume. I could pull mine off and fill it with water to determine the volume of it.

[N0DIH]

I want to get a 96-97 box for mine, I like the box better, thicker (more insulation), and more volume around the filter. Faster? Don't know, but they are better made. Not the crappy thin plastic and cheap clips the 98-00's have. Donaldson design vs GM design...

I'll drig around and if I can get one will send my old one to you. I just need to call the boneyards.


No, mine has the k&n kit that is just a plastic tube with silicone boots. It's just a straight shot to the filter with no oem parts.

[1998454]

I'll make a few calls around here too. If I find one like your looking for I'll trade ya. I read the link you posted and had no clue what the resonator was for. i was always told it was for noise reduction.
I want to get a 96-97 box for mine, I like the box better, thicker (more insulation), and more volume around the filter. Faster? Don't know, but they are better made. Not the crappy thin plastic and cheap clips the 98-00's have. Donaldson design vs GM design...

I'll drig around and if I can get one will send my old one to you. I just need to call the boneyards.

[454cid]

Is yours just plugged?

You can make something, it just needs the volume. I could pull mine off and fill it with water to determine the volume of it.

He may not have the rubber boot, either. I think it would be much more helpful to compare stock with something else, rather than two something else's, that won't match anything else. Unless maybe he just can't find a stock intake at a reasonable price.......... I admit, I don't see 454's in my local salvage yard.

[454cid]

I want to get a 96-97 box for mine, I like the box better, thicker (more insulation), and more volume around the filter. Faster? Don't know, but they are better made. Not the crappy thin plastic and cheap clips the 98-00's have. Donaldson design vs GM design...

I'll drig around and if I can get one will send my old one to you. I just need to call the boneyards.

I've almost purchased the early box a couple of times. I think the early ones are actually made of thinner plastic, but have the air space inside. The airspace inside is a good thing, but over all they look cheap to me. The clips are just wire, not the nice stainless straps that we have. Have you looked at them up close?

[1998454]

Yeah, I don't have any oem intake parts at all. My neighbor however has a 98 like mine that he rarely drives. He would probably loan me his to try.
He may not have the rubber boot, either. I think it would be much more helpful to compare stock with something else, rather than two something else's, that won't match anything else. Unless maybe he just can't find a stock intake at a reasonable price.......... I admit, I don't see 454's in my local salvage yard.

[454cid]

Yeah, I don't have any oem intake parts at all. My neighbor however has a 98 like mine that he rarely drives. He would probably loan me his to try.

That would be an interesting conversation........ "Bob, could I uh, take the air cleaner assembly off of your truck and borrow it for a day? I don't need the whole truck, just the air cleaner parts. I promise I'll put it all back together so you and Mildred can drive it to Home Depot, Sunday afternoon after church."

[N0DIH]

The 96-97's are a thick rubberish plastic material, thicker and heavier, no resonator at the inlet (at least on the ones I have seen), the clips are wire, but strong. The strap ones fall off and get lost, they are a pain, if they start to get loose on you, GLUE THEM IN, they will be gone all too easy. Both mine are gone now. I screw my box together with a screw. Stays sealed at least. The new box just feels cheap, and the lack of an air gap can't be that good with the crazy underhood heat we have in summer.


I've almost purchased the early box a couple of times. I think the early ones are actually made of thinner plastic, but have the air space inside. The airspace inside is a good thing, but over all they look cheap to me. The clips are just wire, not the nice stainless straps that we have. Have you looked at them up close?

[454cid]

The 96-97's are a thick rubberish plastic material, thicker and heavier, no resonator at the inlet (at least on the ones I have seen), the clips are wire, but strong. The strap ones fall off and get lost, they are a pain, if they start to get loose on you, GLUE THEM IN, they will be gone all too easy. Both mine are gone now. I screw my box together with a screw. Stays sealed at least. The new box just feels cheap, and the lack of an air gap can't be that good with the crazy underhood heat we have in summer.

Are the ones on the 454 different than the 350? The older ones I've seen are in no way rubber.

I've never had any problems with the latches on my air box.

I do know the older one doesn't have the resonator....... that's the one thing I did like about it. I was hoping I could swap that part onto my late box, but it didn't look like it would work.

[N0DIH]

Pretty sure all the same. Friend has a 96 K2500 SCLB L31. I will see if he wants to trade, he is looking to sell his truck soon, it is in rough shape, great parts, but it has been a plow truck for a long time.

Its not rubber, but more of a softer plastic that is very different than my 99 is. Nothing hard, much softer. Donaldson designed it. I just hate the crazy bends in the 454 one. They were nuts to allow that.

I think you can swap the inlet from the fender to the air box. Pretty sure they are the same, sans the resonator.


Are the ones on the 454 different than the 350? The older ones I've seen are in no way rubber.

I've never had any problems with the latches on my air box.

I do know the older one doesn't have the resonator....... that's the one thing I did like about it. I was hoping I could swap that part onto my late box, but it didn't look like it would work.

[454cid]

Its not rubber, but more of a softer plastic that is very different than my 99 is. Nothing hard, much softer. Donaldson designed it. I just hate the crazy bends in the 454 one. They were nuts to allow that.

Well yes, they are softer, in part because the plastic is thin. They look thick because they're hollow. It' all air inside. They're a different plastic, too. I think they're made by a process called blow molding.

The biggest thing that I object to is the latches. The wire latches were corroded, and only had small nubs to catch onto, and because the plastic is soft, the nubs looked rounded over. My latches look closer to something you'd find on a tool or storage box of some kind.

What crazy bends are you talking about? The path the air takes? I didn't think that was any different between the two boxes, but it's been awhile since I've seen the older box hooked up........ I more recently looked at it in the salvage yard, strewn about.



I think you can swap the inlet from the fender to the air box. Pretty sure they are the same, sans the resonator.

The length is different , for one since the inlet is sort of cradled by the box rather than just attaching to the outside. I had both in hand at one point.

I think one of us is mis-remembering what we saw. Maybe I'll have to look at it again........ Although, given it's cold out, I don't know when that will be.

[1998454]

Not really, we have swapped parts before trying to trace problems..known him for 30 yrs.
That would be an interesting conversation........ "Bob, could I uh, take the air cleaner assembly off of your truck and borrow it for a day? I don't need the whole truck, just the air cleaner parts. I promise I'll put it all back together so you and Mildred can drive it to Home Depot, Sunday afternoon after church."

[N0DIH]

The 100-110 degree bend coming out of the filter to the MAF, then another big bend from the MAF to the TB. Just nuts. They should have turned the airbox sideways and made a straight shot. Oh, right, might have hurt the hp rating of the new 6.0L.....


Well yes, they are softer, in part because the plastic is thin. They look thick because they're hollow. It' all air inside. They're a different plastic, too. I think they're made by a process called blow molding.

The biggest thing that I object to is the latches. The wire latches were corroded, and only had small nubs to catch onto, and because the plastic is soft, the nubs looked rounded over. My latches look closer to something you'd find on a tool or storage box of some kind.

What crazy bends are you talking about? The path the air takes? I didn't think that was any different between the two boxes, but it's been awhile since I've seen the older box hooked up........ I more recently looked at it in the salvage yard, strewn about.



The length is different , for one since the inlet is sort of cradled by the box rather than just attaching to the outside. I had both in hand at one point.

I think one of us is mis-remembering what we saw. Maybe I'll have to look at it again........ Although, given it's cold out, I don't know when that will be.

[454cid]

The 100-110 degree bend coming out of the filter to the MAF, then another big bend from the MAF to the TB. Just nuts. They should have turned the airbox sideways and made a straight shot.

That's the same between the old and new box, though isn't it?

[99urbansuburban]

I would like to see dyno results, real world stuff on these trucks stock box setup, then switched out to a k&n filter then the fipk, hp, tq numbers plus air temp differences. Is there really a difference or waste of money?

[N0DIH]

For the huge $ that K&N sells it for, it is a waste of money, get a PCM tune, far more gains for much less cash....

[99urbansuburban]

I already have it, so the tune is next

[454cid]

For the huge $ that K&N sells it for, it is a waste of money, get a PCM tune, far more gains for much less cash....

I agree. Too much money for a molded piece of plastic.

[1998454]

Update....My truck with the cai removed and a complete stock unit installed. Idled a little smoother (not sure why). Average of three 0-60 runs was 7.724. Swapped back to the cai. Idle was back to its normal slight roughness and avg. 0-60 was 7.681. That's an improvement of .043 thousandths to 60...lol. May be a good deal if the cai was free, or maybe under 5 bucks! I did the testing at the same engine temp, within 1 degree outside temp, and in the same stretch of road from an idle in 4x4 to be as consistent as possible. Now, everyone with a 454 run out and dump $300 asap!!!! There's a good 1/4hp in it for ya! :)

[1998454]

Also, previous testing proved that the tb spacer was totally useless. so between the cai and the spacer there is $450 for absolutely nothing! At least on my truck.

[N0DIH]

Not to abuse your truck, I would love to see some say 40-70 times, 3 with the stock air box and 3 with the CAI.

This would decrease margin of error, but it takes some effort to change the whole setup.

Would be interesting to make a homebrew CAI and vary the resonator volumes and see if there is any effect.

[1998454]

I may be able to do that. I just have to figure out how to time it while rolling. My current setup is g-force activated from zero, and without wheel spin is extremely accurate. I guess i could do the runs and video it...break down the video to get times. no worries about abusing the truck...we're both fine with it! lol
Not to abuse your truck, I would love to see some say 40-70 times, 3 with the stock air box and 3 with the CAI.

This would decrease margin of error, but it takes some effort to change the whole setup.

Would be interesting to make a homebrew CAI and vary the resonator volumes and see if there is any effect.

[1998454]

One more thought on the intakes. I tested the truck while at operating temperature. the factory intake had the benefit of taking in cool air, the cai was sucking in the hot air and still matched the oem setup. NODIH may be on to something...Make a real cold air setup with nice straight runs and add a resonator as well.

[N0DIH]

What I do is start the run, start the stopwatch at the time it crosses the mph I want and stop it when it passes the next one. Don't try to hit the gas and the stopwatch together, doesn't give good times. Really just like the acceleration itself. Like the dragstrip times.

K&N seems to have just molded something, not really doing a real all out design. Would be nice to do a good design.

[1998454]

I may try that. The truck is real consistent, usually within a few hundredths, worst case a tenth on different days and temps.

[chevy05]

I have been really following this since I started it to see what really works. I looked at mine the other day wondering about some straighter pipe and make it suck air from the inner fender to try not to suck the hot air.

[99urbansuburban]

ok here is mine
http://i441.photobucket.com/albums/qq132/02cummins/IMG_0077.jpg

[1998454]

That is identical to my warm air intake.

[454cid]

That is identical to my warm air intake.

Does that box not seal very well? I've never seen one up close....... I don't like the oiled filter. I ran a drop-in K&N for a lot of miles, and cleaned it a time or two. When I got my Fram Washable (dry synthetic) I tossed the greaseball K&N.

[1998454]

No, not really. I put foam where the shield meets the fender but I think it still pulls alot of air around the hood. when i get time i'm going to move the battery to the other side and see what i can build.
Does that box not seal very well? I've never seen one up close....... I don't like the oiled filter. I ran a drop-in K&N for a lot of miles, and cleaned it a time or two. When I got my Fram Washable (dry synthetic) I tossed the greaseball K&N.

[454cid]

No, not really. I put foam where the shield meets the fender but I think it still pulls alot of air around the hood. when i get time i'm going to move the battery to the other side and see what i can build.

That wouldn't be too bad, I guess. I've wanted to clear out the driver side corner, but I don't know what else to do about a washer bottle since the early bottle goes where our PCM sits. I suppose putting the battery on top of it, and then having the other corner clear except for the sir filter wouldn't be bad.

I also wonder if a GMT-800 box would be advantageous. I have no idea how easy it would be to use, or even if it would get us anything.

[N0DIH]

I was wondering the same, if a GMT800 box would work. The 8100 GMT800 Avalanche box is so so, I didn't think it was very large at all.

Any ideas how large pipe we should even have?


That wouldn't be too bad, I guess. I've wanted to clear out the driver side corner, but I don't know what else to do about a washer bottle since the early bottle goes where our PCM sits. I suppose putting the battery on top of it, and then having the other corner clear except for the sir filter wouldn't be bad.

I also wonder if a GMT-800 box would be advantageous. I have no idea how easy it would be to use, or even if it would get us anything.

[1998454]

Mine already has a driver side battery tray. I want to remove the passenger tray and mount a box there, then modify the core support, fab a duct to make a direct air shot from the rt opening of a diesel bumper.
That wouldn't be too bad, I guess. I've wanted to clear out the driver side corner, but I don't know what else to do about a washer bottle since the early bottle goes where our PCM sits. I suppose putting the battery on top of it, and then having the other corner clear except for the sir filter wouldn't be bad.

I also wonder if a GMT-800 box would be advantageous. I have no idea how easy it would be to use, or even if it would get us anything.

[1998454]

I would think the pipe should be the same size as the maf, and in as long, straight of a run as possible to maintain air velocity.
I was wondering the same, if a GMT800 box would work. The 8100 GMT800 Avalanche box is so so, I didn't think it was very large at all.

Any ideas how large pipe we should even have?

[N0DIH]

I would like a diesel bumper.... Yes to ram air. Some say it doesn't matter, it does, it ensure the air box is always filled to capacity, which is a good thing... :) I guess I look at it as pouring water in a box with a hole in the bottom. The more you put in the higher the pressure is trying to get the water out. Much? No, not much, it every bit helps.

I know the diesel guys mod or take out the snorkel in the fender claiming it is too small for the 6.5LTD.

[454cid]

Mine already has a driver side battery tray. I want to remove the passenger tray and mount a box there, then modify the core support, fab a duct to make a direct air shot from the rt opening of a diesel bumper.


I would like a diesel bumper.... Yes to ram air. Some say it doesn't matter, it does, it ensure the air box is always filled to capacity, which is a good thing... :) I guess I look at it as pouring water in a box with a hole in the bottom. The more you put in the higher the pressure is trying to get the water out. Much? No, not much, it every bit helps.

I would be afraid of making the connection between the bumper and airbox that well defined on a daily driver. I don't want any chance of water getting to the airbox. and into the engine. When it rains hard around here, there can be some deep puddles that when hit at speed simulate a boat ride.



I know the diesel guys mod or take out the snorkel in the fender claiming it is too small for the 6.5LTD.

The snorkel in the fender is only on the early GMT-400's according to Someotherguy.

[1998454]

Yeah, there would have to be a drain hole in the bottom of the filter housing and high water crossings would require a screwdriver to unhook a duct.
I would be afraid of making the connection between the bumper and airbox that well defined on a daily driver. I don't want any chance of water getting to the airbox. and into the engine. When it rains hard around here, there can be some deep puddles that when hit at speed simulate a boat ride.



The snorkel in the fender is only on the early GMT-400's according to Someotherguy.

[N0DIH]

Mine has it (mine's a 99). Pull the air box out and the part that goes to the fender, then look behind the headlight in the corner by the battery, you will see the other end and the bolt that holds it there. Just never figured out how to get it actually OUT.

I water injested my 3800 once with an under bumper ram air. It stalled it, but was ok, the amsoil oil wetted filter let no water thru (Saved my butt!). I popped the inlet off and got it home (1 block away) and it was fine. Freaked me out.

This was one of the torrential rains in Colorado Springs and the drains couldn't keep up.


I would be afraid of making the connection between the bumper and airbox that well defined on a daily driver. I don't want any chance of water getting to the airbox. and into the engine. When it rains hard around here, there can be some deep puddles that when hit at speed simulate a boat ride.



The snorkel in the fender is only on the early GMT-400's according to Someotherguy.

[454cid]

Yeah, there would have to be a drain hole in the bottom of the filter housing and high water crossings would require a screwdriver to unhook a duct.

But the drain hole in order to drain quickly would have to be large, and that would allow air to escape, defeating the purpose of the whole thing.

I wouldn't want to have to disconnect something when it rains a lot.

[454cid]

Mine has it (mine's a 99). Pull the air box out and the part that goes to the fender, then look behind the headlight in the corner by the battery, you will see the other end and the bolt that holds it there. Just never figured out how to get it actually OUT.

I thought I had one, until Someotherguy got me to actually look. There is a plastic fitting in the core support, but it doesn't go all the way up through the fender to the airbox.

[1998454]

I wouldn't think hard rain would be an issue. I had an slp ram air trans am and rain blew into the filter all the time. It just had like a trap with holes in it to allow water to escape.
But the drain hole in order to drain quickly would have to be large, and that would allow air to escape, defeating the purpose of the whole thing.

I wouldn't want to have to disconnect something when it rains a lot.

[N0DIH]

A really good design will have an alternate air inlet, so if the bottom gets plugged (water) the other one will have a valve to open. A light spring is all that is needed to keep the air from the other air inlet from coming in unless the other inlet plugs.

I did it on my 85 Cutlass, made a dual snorkel air cleaner and had dual under bumper ram air and never once did I get water in the air cleaner. I should have kept that setup.... :)




But the drain hole in order to drain quickly would have to be large, and that would allow air to escape, defeating the purpose of the whole thing.

I wouldn't want to have to disconnect something when it rains a lot.

[N0DIH]

I remember seeing it when I had the header off, can't really see too far back, but there was an air inlet there heading towards the air box opening. I'll look again. Got me curious to see for sure.


I thought I had one, until Someotherguy got me to actually look. There is a plastic fitting in the core support, but it doesn't go all the way up through the fender to the airbox.

[1998454]

Mine still has the duct at the core support, but then it just used the fender as a duct to the box.
I thought I had one, until Someotherguy got me to actually look. There is a plastic fitting in the core support, but it doesn't go all the way up through the fender to the airbox.

[99urbansuburban]

just want to let anybody know if they want a cai mine is for sale. http://www.ebay.com/itm/130655397064?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

[Pedl]

hi guys,

got a question about my 94 suburban with the 454
I wanna upgrade air intake system and wanted to ask what you guys think of the K&N 57-3014 (http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=57-3014)

pros? cons? alternatives?

would it be better to also install another hood? like for example the 2" cowl induction hood from LMC truck part no. 39-9611-T found here (http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/csd/full.aspx?Page=35)

thanks

[454cid]

hi guys,

got a question about my 94 suburban with the 454
I wanna upgrade air intake system and wanted to ask what you guys think of the K&N 57-3014 (http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=57-3014)

pros? cons? alternatives?

would it be better to also install another hood? like for example the 2" cowl induction hood from LMC truck part no. 39-9611-T found here (http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/csd/full.aspx?Page=35)

thanks

That looks like it's just an old fashioned open element air filter. Save you money and keep your stock setup. It should be a closed air cleaner with a tube running to the inner fender that takes air from the outside.

[1998454]

The open air cleaner will only draw air that is coming through the radiator at 180+ degrees and cost you some power. pros, looks decent, cleans up underhood. Cons, loss of power, more prone to detonation while towing in hot weather.
hi guys,

got a question about my 94 suburban with the 454
I wanna upgrade air intake system and wanted to ask what you guys think of the K&N 57-3014 (http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=57-3014)

pros? cons? alternatives?

would it be better to also install another hood? like for example the 2" cowl induction hood from LMC truck part no. 39-9611-T found here (http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/csd/full.aspx?Page=35)

thanks

[Pedl]

thanks for you answers guys.

so would it help if I install a different hood? coz then the (cold fresh) air should flow directly to the open air cleaner, right?
that's why I posted the link to the LMC catalogue

I would only install them combined, as I already thought that the open air cleaner alone wouldn't do any good.
But I really like the looks of it, so I want to know if there are any possiblilties ;)

and I'm not really towing that much, probably once every few months
so the towing issue is not that big of a deal

[skills4lou]

If you manufacture a SEALED system that draws cold air from the cowl, then you'll see some gains. But just putting the hood on won't direct cold air to the intake, it'll just give the hot air from the radiator another place to exit the engine bay. Nice for defrosting on a cold morning, but useless for engine performance.

[Pedl]

ok, i c

so why does k&n then state that the 57-3014 gets you the most gain of all air systems they got for my truck?

[PonyKiller87]

Because they offer that and something thats worse, lol.

Honestly like the other guys said, sucking in the hot engine air will make it worse. If you want to test out this theory, take your stock setup, flip the lid over, now the filter will be open to under hood temps. It will sound kind of cool, but performance will go down.

[Pedl]

alright

thanks a lot guys
and sorry if my questions seem dumb, I'm new to american V8s and so I have to gain some knowlegde through asking dumb questions ;)

[454cid]

alright

thanks a lot guys
and sorry if my questions seem dumb, I'm new to american V8s and so I have to gain some knowlegde through asking dumb questions ;)

The same principle applies to all engines, not just V8s. You don't want air that's been heated in the engine compartment. You want to draw air from outside the vehicle.

[Pedl]

yeah I understand the general principle of hot & cold air for an engine ;)

just wanted to state that this will be the first car/truck I am really getting into modifying

but what I still don't understand is, how K&N can state, that the 57-3014 generates more hp than these inlet system if more hot air gets to the engine that way as obviously the air between the engine and the hood is obviously hotter than the air that gets through the head light into this inlet system

As said before I really like the looks of the 57-3014 system and would prefer it compared to the other ones.
but of course not if the results are a lot worse

so which manufacturer would you recommend?
airraid? volant? any other?

[PonyKiller87]

All kinds of things can factor into how they got or fudged thier numbers to make it seem impressive.

Think about it, you take a stock truck and a truck with this filter on it and throw them on a dyno with the hood open and the only air flow is from a fan in front of the radiator. In that setup the K&N will look better on the dyno than stock because its not going to get as much hot air as it would on the road with the hood closed... The other thing is nobody is ever going to spend the time and money to sue them over thier HP claims so as long as its not completely crazy they can claim just about anything.


yeah I understand the general principle of hot & cold air for an engine ;)

just wanted to state that this will be the first car/truck I am really getting into modifying

but what I still don't understand is, how K&N can state, that the 57-3014 generates more hp than these inlet system if more hot air gets to the engine that way as obviously the air between the engine and the hood is obviously hotter than the air that gets through the head light into this inlet system

As said before I really like the looks of the 57-3014 system and would prefer it compared to the other ones.
but of course not if the results are a lot worse

so which manufacturer would you recommend?
airraid? volant? any other?

[skills4lou]

All kinds of things can factor into how they got or fudged thier numbers to make it seem impressive.

Ponykiller has hit the nail on the head
It's a proven fact that 85% of all statistics is complete BS. ;)

[Pedl]

ah I hate it
why can't anyone be honest anymore

that's all BS


alright thanks guys
I guess I'll just pick whatever I think is best and what I like best from the looks and don't care for any numbers stated on some freakin companies's website
who cares about +7hp when I'm using my truck as daily driver and not on the track

[99urbansuburban]

paper filters the best than an oil soaked one, I was getting oil on the mass air flow sensor from the factory oiled k&n fipk

[shady84]

So I've been following along here and had one thought that may have been answered but my inability to read good missed. What if you built your own piping and plumbed it back into the stock air box and use a better filter? Basically all you would be doing is getting rid of the corrugated stock tubing keeping the maf in the same spot and keeping the box ontop of the tb. Someone straighten me out if im just being silly and not gonna gain much that way either. Ive be told that the corrugated hose causes turbulance that is a big killer.

[dabmeb]

After a year of the K&N cai it is coming off. The only change I've seen besides the noise is the engine revs a little quicker, till it hits 4500 limit and that sucks.
The noise is horrendous climbing the mountains and if I throw the trailer on it then rattles the dash and door panels with the houl. The 7.4 pulls the hills fine in both configurations and I've seen less than 1 mpg differences city or highway.
My K&N will be for sale cheap shortly.

[shady84]

So I've been following along here and had one thought that may have been answered but my inability to read good missed. What if you built your own piping and plumbed it back into the stock air box and use a better filter? Basically all you would be doing is getting rid of the corrugated stock tubing keeping the maf in the same spot and keeping the box ontop of the tb. Someone straighten me out if im just being silly and not gonna gain much that way either. Ive be told that the corrugated hose causes turbulance that is a big killer.

Sorry I just looked under my hood again and see that I'm a dummy I thought there was another flex pipe between the air box and maf. And they're isn't as much room as I thought for that.

[kwbudaman]

I believe it was Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens?) who said: There are lies, damned lies, and then there's statistics.....


Ponykiller has hit the nail on the head
It's a proven fact that 85% of all statistics is complete BS. ;)

[kwbudaman]

On another note, been doing some datalogging on intake air temps with the standard air intake system on my 2000 GMC. I also have a remote temp sensor mounted right behind the front grill area. I have compared the two temperature readings, and have found the IAT readings not less than 10 degrees warmer than what the IAT reports with the vehicle under motion, which would be expected. My next experiment is to relocate the remote temp sensor into the right fender well ahead of the air box to get a better sense of how much heat soak is occurring prior to the air box inlet. There has been much discussion about IAT; thought I would try to provide some additional data on what might be happening to the air prior to the air box and IAT area.

Additional: After datalogging, the inner fender air temps are adding at least 5 degrees to the outside air temp. There is considerable fluctuation of the inner fender air temps that the IAC does not "see", suggesting the IAC reading is smoothed to eliminate short term temperature changes. All the more reason to obtain more direct air flow into the inner fender area during warm weather operation.


Update: Been riding around all summer with a temp probe in the inner fender area, and have seen temps in excess of 150 degrees F. Insulating the air filter box, IAT, MAF, etc., will only help with heat soak from the engine compartment. The only solution to the air temp problem is to get outside air directly to the air filter assembly.

[99urbansuburban]

Has any body used the volant cai, is it noisy as well as the k&n?