Battery and inverters

[BurbanAZ]

I have a 12k winch on my suburban, i also have some offroad lights, and we need an inverter for our longer trips. On our last trip we had to winch out of snow a few times and it ruined the alternator and killed the batter so i was thinking a dual batter set up. Id also like to have an inverter so we can charge things, run tools, etc.. Anyone have anything they would recommend for inverters? also i know optima yellow or blue top are the standard but their so expensive, if their by far the best ill buy them but has anyone else tried a different brand of deep cycle that works well thats maybe more affordable. I also saw a setup where someone had a solar panel on their roof and that looked pretty cool for longer trips, anyone try that?

[AllGo'N'Show]

Samlex Inverters are wicked, Pure Sine only is the way to go. Just put a 1000W in the bed of a customers Dodge for all his ski bags and whatever else he wants to throw at it, he loved it and I loved it so much I must get one now too :). We didn't use their optional panel they ship with it, just wired it to ignition power so it won't kill the battery if someone "forgets" about it.

If you have a ton of accessories, a dual battery setup can help or an upgraded alternator may help as well. Don't run a cheap battery either as you stated, Optima are good and Interstate own's them, I love my Interstate batteries, call them up and give them the size(s) you can fit and find some big buggers to put in there :)

Good luck! Keep us updated.

[BurbanAZ]

Samlex Inverters are wicked, Pure Sine only is the way to go. Just put a 1000W in the bed of a customers Dodge for all his ski bags and whatever else he wants to throw at it, he loved it and I loved it so much I must get one now too :). We didn't use their optional panel they ship with it, just wired it to ignition power so it won't kill the battery if someone "forgets" about it.

If you have a ton of accessories, a dual battery setup can help or an upgraded alternator may help as well. Don't run a cheap battery either as you stated, Optima are good and Interstate own's them, I love my Interstate batteries, call them up and give them the size(s) you can fit and find some big buggers to put in there :)

Good luck! Keep us updated.

Thanks for the input, my worst area is electrical so when it comes to that i usually have some trouble trying to figure out what i need. My truck is an ongoing project so i know i will add more electrical demands in the future. The physical size of the battery isn't a big deal since im going to build a tray anyway so i can just order the battery and then build the tray if i need to. Ill probably just go with the optima since their proven. If i get a dual battery set up will i still need a higher output alternator?

[BadChevyZ-71]

Good topic 95BurbanAz! As AllGo’N’Show said above don’t go with a cheap battery if you do a dual battery setup. Optima and Odyssey batteries are the way to go. I currently have an Optima Yellow Top battery in my Z-71 and planning on doing a dual battery setup using an Optima Red or Yellow Top battery. I’m just not sure how I’m going to run the wiring yet as I’m still doing some research on that. I’m also going to upgrade my alternator to a higher amperage alternator. I wasn’t 100% sure on your last question so I did a little research real quick to make sure what I tell you are pretty accurate. A higher output alternator will allow your truck to charge the battery more efficiently and to allow for more power to be utilized from the constant alternator source rather than draining power from the battery. The alternator is designed to fit in the stock location, although separate cables are run to the battery to accommodate the additional electricity. A couple things before you upgrade your alternator. It is recommended that you ensure your batteries are properly charged. Failure to do so could result in your new alternator work too hard to charge the batteries when first installed. It is recommended you charge your batteries before using your new alternator to avoid an initial power drain on the alternator. As with any electrical work on your vehicle you should first disconnect the negative terminal of your battery. This will prevent unnecessary sparking, shorting, and possibility of damage to components. If you have a dual battery setup already then just disconnect the primary batteries ground/negative connection. Also when doing a dual battery and high amperage alternator upgrade this is also a good time to check your drive belts. Since you have a winch, off-road lights, and plan on doing more electrical modifications it’d be a good idea to purchase a high amperage alternator. Sorry for the long post. I hope this helps some.

[2500ak]

Optima blue tops are the way to go if you're going to be running accessories, especially if you're ever running them when the truck is not running.

When a normal battery starts out it has a certain amount of amps that it can supply, discharge it fully once and you'll have about 20% less, and so forth until after several discharges the battery is ruined. A deep cycle battery like the blue tops are made to be discharged and recover completely. At least for a large number of discharging and recharging cycles.

You've got a few options when wiring them. The easiest is to just run a wire from the + spare battery to the + main battery, or the junction box, or the constant 12-volt stud on the starter solenoid. Putting a breaker, or mega-fuse on this line isn't a bad idea. Then ground the - terminal to the block, frame, or main battery - terminal.

This will give you twice the reserve capacity, and twice the cranking amps, and will also keep accessories from shocking the alternator too badly (batteries act as a sort of shock absorber for large changes in load).

What this won't do is let you run down one battery completely, and still be able to start the truck.

If you want a battery dedicated to accessories you can run a diode isolator. This will allow one alt to charge two batteries not connected to each other separately. The disadvantage here is that the isolator isn't 100% efficient and as result the alternator output is a little less. Also without the ability to connect them if the starting battery goes dead you can't use the aux battery for extra cranking amps.

example: http://www.amazon.com/NOCO-IGD140HP-High-Performance-Battery-Isolator/dp/B001DKRF2M/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_2


Best way imo is to use a solenoid isolator. This is how I'm wiring my two new red tops up (at the moment they're just connected in parallel). You can either wire the isolator to a switch in the cab, or to some ignition triggered 12-volt source (or both).

example:http://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Duty-Solenoid-80AMP-12V/dp/B0050I94XG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_1

When the key is off, or the switch is down the batteries will remain separate. This way you can discharge the accessory battery while keeping the main battery in tact. Inversely, if you leave the headlight on and the main battery goes dead the truck can jumpstart itself off the accessory battery.

You can also wire up a hybrid system like my project truck has. With a diode isolator and a solenoid on a switch that can join the two up for extra starting power. imo it's a little unnecessary but it does work.

If you have a winch you really should have a dedicate deep cycle battery for it imo. Also, unless you're running a diode isolator use two new batteries of the same type, age, and manufacture. Otherwise the batteries will wear each other out faster.


Optima's aren't that expensive if you get them from Sam's Club, or Costco. If you don't have a membership find a friend or family member who does. The blue tops are about 160$ there iirc. Parts shops usually have them for about 230-250.

[BurbanAZ]

thanks thats helpful info, im going to go with a yellow top optima i think, i just recently bought the battery i have in there now. So my question is when i go with the dual battery set up do the batteries have to be the same? or can i have the optima yellow top (deep cycle) for all my accessories and still use my current battery for all the normal stuff then when i need to replace that battery id just probably upgrade to another optima probably.

[BurbanAZ]

Optima blue tops are the way to go if you're going to be running accessories, especially if you're ever running them when the truck is not running.

When a normal battery starts out it has a certain amount of amps that it can supply, discharge it fully once and you'll have about 20% less, and so forth until after several discharges the battery is ruined. A deep cycle battery like the blue tops are made to be discharged and recover completely. At least for a large number of discharging and recharging cycles.

You've got a few options when wiring them. The easiest is to just run a wire from the + spare battery to the + main battery, or the junction box, or the constant 12-volt stud on the starter solenoid. Putting a breaker, or mega-fuse on this line isn't a bad idea. Then ground the - terminal to the block, frame, or main battery - terminal.

This will give you twice the reserve capacity, and twice the cranking amps, and will also keep accessories from shocking the alternator too badly (batteries act as a sort of shock absorber for large changes in load).

What this won't do is let you run down one battery completely, and still be able to start the truck.

If you want a battery dedicated to accessories you can run a diode isolator. This will allow one alt to charge two batteries not connected to each other separately. The disadvantage here is that the isolator isn't 100% efficient and as result the alternator output is a little less. Also without the ability to connect them if the starting battery goes dead you can't use the aux battery for extra cranking amps.

example: http://www.amazon.com/NOCO-IGD140HP-High-Performance-Battery-Isolator/dp/B001DKRF2M/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_2


Best way imo is to use a solenoid isolator. This is how I'm wiring my two new red tops up (at the moment they're just connected in parallel). You can either wire the isolator to a switch in the cab, or to some ignition triggered 12-volt source (or both).

example:http://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Duty-Solenoid-80AMP-12V/dp/B0050I94XG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_1

When the key is off, or the switch is down the batteries will remain separate. This way you can discharge the accessory battery while keeping the main battery in tact. Inversely, if you leave the headlight on and the main battery goes dead the truck can jumpstart itself off the accessory battery.

You can also wire up a hybrid system like my project truck has. With a diode isolator and a solenoid on a switch that can join the two up for extra starting power. imo it's a little unnecessary but it does work.

If you have a winch you really should have a dedicate deep cycle battery for it imo. Also, unless you're running a diode isolator use two new batteries of the same type, age, and manufacture. Otherwise the batteries will wear each other out faster.


Optima's aren't that expensive if you get them from Sam's Club, or Costco. If you don't have a membership find a friend or family member who does. The blue tops are about 160$ there iirc. Parts shops usually have them for about 230-250.

Thanks that helps a bunch the solenoid isolator sounds like the way i want to go, i want the ability to jump my main battery with an accessory battery if i need to. Would you recommend something like this?
http://www.amazon.com/WARN-28022-120-Amp-Battery-Isolator/dp/B00029XF4C

[BadChevyZ-71]

2500Ak,
What makes the Optima Blue-Top better than the Yellow-Top when it comes to running other electrical modifications? All I can find on the Blue-Top is that it's a marine/rv battery. Just curious thanks!

[BurbanAZ]

2500Ak,
What makes the Optima Blue-Top better than the Yellow-Top when it comes to running other electrical modifications? All I can find on the Blue-Top is that it's a marine/rv battery. Just curious thanks!

im curious about this too, from what ive read the yellow and blue top are both deep cycle batteries so they would preform pretty similar, and the red top is a more basic vehicle battery and not a deep cycle.

[2500ak]

They had some problems with defective yellow tops. Originally all the the Optima batteries were fantastic, back when optima still held proprietary control over most of the patents for the sealed, spiral cell, paste filled, shock proof batteries.

I should know, the one that I just replaced with two new red tops was an early red top that had survived 10 winters. Four of them in Fairbanks, where it never failed me once. Not even when I left it at my Grandmas for Christmas break, 2 weeks in -50F, with dips close to -70F at night. Flew back up and the engine fired right over. No headbolt-heater, no oil heater, no battery heater. Even when it failed it would still hold a charge, just not overnight at -50F. I plan on using it in my project truck as a summer battery.

For years I've been hearing that the Yellow Tops have reliability problems. Maybe they fixed it, but from what I've heard at parts shops sometimes they're good, and sometimes the buyer has to swap out a few under warranty before they work right. All I've talked to say the Blue Tops are the least likely to come back for returns.

I know they used to be rated for higher CCA like the Red Top is, because the old design was that red was starting, yellow was deep cycle, and blue was deep cycle / starting, but I'm not sure if that's still true.

Either way, with your truck you'll have top mounted terminals. The Red Tops have side post and top mounted, whereas the Blue Tops have top mounted terminals, and top mounted accessory screw down terminals. I'm thinking you'll have an easier time wiring them.

Also that isolator you mention in your post is a diode isolator.

The solenoid isolators are ones like these:

http://www.amazon.com/Cole-Hersee-24143-Continuous-Solenoid/dp/B000XBKHZY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326618207&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Duty-Solenoid-80AMP-12V/dp/B0050I94XG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_1

I'm going to use the latter one, although I've heard the 200 amp models tend to fail less often. 80 amps continuous should be plenty though. They're basically giant relays, and if they're rated 80 continuous a momentary spike (like starting or using the winch) shouldn't damage them.

Actually GM has a stock setup like this for trucks (NBS, not sure about OBS) that have the plow package. If I recall correctly the isolator for that is even smaller than 80 amps.

I don't personally recommend the diode isolator because by design it cook off some of the alternators juice which gets converted to heat (hence the aluminum case with the big cooling fins), but the cheap one on my project truck (something that the previous owner put in that I've seen at Schucks for 30$), seems to work quite well. I've never bothered to rewire it, and it seems to work quite well. I would expect that Warn one to work even better.

What amperage alternator do you have. If you go diode isolator I'd be sure to get one that's rated for more amps than the alt can put out, just to be on the safe side. My guess is you've got the 105 amp; it is the most common. Although there are, 90, 135 (what I have), and I think also a 140 amps that GM has used in recent years.

[2500ak]

thanks thats helpful info, im going to go with a yellow top optima i think, i just recently bought the battery i have in there now. So my question is when i go with the dual battery set up do the batteries have to be the same? or can i have the optima yellow top (deep cycle) for all my accessories and still use my current battery for all the normal stuff then when i need to replace that battery id just probably upgrade to another optima probably.

If you're going to have two separate batteries that aren't of the same age it's best to at least have a solenoid isolator to keep them separate when they aren't charging. If you the types of batteries it might be best to have a diode isolator, and then a solenoid isolator for joining them on command.

[2500ak]

Oh, and another thing. When you go to wire this up you don't need to use really heavy gauge cable, but be sure to use good quality cable and lugs. I usually get mine from here, the stuff they sell is a lot cheaper, much higher quality, more heat resistant, and a whole lot more flexible than the stuff you get at the parts store.

I bought about 25 feet of 2 gauge and a bunch of crimp on lugs for 50$ a few year ago. Used lengths of it on several projects, and still have quite a bit of it left.

https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/browsecatalogs.pl?UNDEF::

[BurbanAZ]

They had some problems with defective yellow tops. Originally all the the Optima batteries were fantastic, back when optima still held proprietary control over most of the patents for the sealed, spiral cell, paste filled, shock proof batteries.

I should know, the one that I just replaced with two new red tops was an early red top that had survived 10 winters. Four of them in Fairbanks, where it never failed me once. Not even when I left it at my Grandmas for Christmas break, 2 weeks in -50F, with dips close to -70F at night. Flew back up and the engine fired right over. No headbolt-heater, no oil heater, no battery heater. Even when it failed it would still hold a charge, just not overnight at -50F. I plan on using it in my project truck as a summer battery.

For years I've been hearing that the Yellow Tops have reliability problems. Maybe they fixed it, but from what I've heard at parts shops sometimes they're good, and sometimes the buyer has to swap out a few under warranty before they work right. All I've talked to say the Blue Tops are the least likely to come back for returns.

I know they used to be rated for higher CCA like the Red Top is, because the old design was that red was starting, yellow was deep cycle, and blue was deep cycle / starting, but I'm not sure if that's still true.

Either way, with your truck you'll have top mounted terminals. The Red Tops have side post and top mounted, whereas the Blue Tops have top mounted terminals, and top mounted accessory screw down terminals. I'm thinking you'll have an easier time wiring them.

Also that isolator you mention in your post is a diode isolator.

The solenoid isolators are ones like these:

http://www.amazon.com/Cole-Hersee-24143-Continuous-Solenoid/dp/B000XBKHZY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326618207&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Continuous-Duty-Solenoid-80AMP-12V/dp/B0050I94XG/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_1

I'm going to use the latter one, although I've heard the 200 amp models tend to fail less often. 80 amps continuous should be plenty though. They're basically giant relays, and if they're rated 80 continuous a momentary spike (like starting or using the winch) shouldn't damage them.

Actually GM has a stock setup like this for trucks (NBS, not sure about OBS) that have the plow package. If I recall correctly the isolator for that is even smaller than 80 amps.

I don't personally recommend the diode isolator because by design it cook off some of the alternators juice which gets converted to heat (hence the aluminum case with the big cooling fins), but the cheap one on my project truck (something that the previous owner put in that I've seen at Schucks for 30$), seems to work quite well. I've never bothered to rewire it, and it seems to work quite well. I would expect that Warn one to work even better.

What amperage alternator do you have. If you go diode isolator I'd be sure to get one that's rated for more amps than the alt can put out, just to be on the safe side. My guess is you've got the 105 amp; it is the most common. Although there are, 90, 135 (what I have), and I think also a 140 amps that GM has used in recent years.
ok yea the solonoid one was what i wanted to go with, is it worth buying like one of the painless kits for the dual battery setups or is it just basically the same thing but cost more. I have the 105 amp, it was the largest that i could buy when i just went into checker after my winch ruined my first one. Do u think my 105 amp would be fine with dual batteries running my accessories?

If you're going to have two separate batteries that aren't of the same age it's best to at least have a solenoid isolator to keep them separate when they aren't charging. If you the types of batteries it might be best to have a diode isolator, and then a solenoid isolator for joining them on command.
yea i want to go with the solenoid isolator, does the solenoid use a switch to be either connected to both battery or isolated, and then just both wired into my alternator separately to charge them?


Oh, and another thing. When you go to wire this up you don't need to use really heavy gauge cable, but be sure to use good quality cable and lugs. I usually get mine from here, the stuff they sell is a lot cheaper, much higher quality, more heat resistant, and a whole lot more flexible than the stuff you get at the parts store.

I bought about 25 feet of 2 gauge and a bunch of crimp on lugs for 50$ a few year ago. Used lengths of it on several projects, and still have quite a bit of it left.

https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/browsecatalogs.pl?UNDEF::
i have a decent welding supply place here in town where i get all my welding stuff so they should have some, what did u use to crimp the lugs on the 2 guage wire? I had to replace the positive cable on my truck a while back and tried everything i could to crimp it but couldnt then figured id need something made for it.

[2500ak]

ok yea the solonoid one was what i wanted to go with, is it worth buying like one of the painless kits for the dual battery setups or is it just basically the same thing but cost more. I have the 105 amp, it was the largest that i could buy when i just went into checker after my winch ruined my first one. Do u think my 105 amp would be fine with dual batteries running my accessories?

Yes, a 105 amp alt will probably be fine. When the batteries are charged it won't be working any harder than if it was only charging one battery to maintain that charge. When the batteries get somewhat discharged it will charge them back up over the course of a few minutes. imo dual batteries is easier on an alternator as long as it isn't way under power for it's application. 105 amp isn't ideal, but as long as the winch isn't running for hours at a time I don't see much problem with it.

I think the painless kits are overpriced. You can build essentially the same thing for about 30$. The one nice thing I've seen is that most of their kits have three position switches so that you can have the batteries always connected, connected only when the key is on, or always disconnected.

A little complex for my taste, but I can see the appeal.



yea i want to go with the solenoid isolator, does the solenoid use a switch to be either connected to both battery or isolated, and then just both wired into my alternator separately to charge them?


You wire a solenoid exactly as you would a relay.

http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/productimages3/sk1949.jpg

Which is what you use to wire up other switchable 12-volt circuits (for foglights and whatnot)

http://www.all-neon-car-lights.com/images/relay-diagram.jpg

http://www.usautoelectric.com/image_manager/attributes/image/image_56/1097854235_4240694121.JPG

There's two large posts, you can think of those as the 30 (+ from aux bat) and 87 (+ to main batt)

and two smaller posts 86 (applies 12-volt power to close relay) and 85 (ground to chassis)

Whenever power is applied to the 86 post the solenoid will close with a loud click, connecting the two batteries and allowing the alternator to charge the discharged accessory battery, or the accessory battery to jumpstart the vehicle.

In other words:

http://www.oznium.com/images/wiring_diagrams/200-amp-battery-isolator-relay-diagram.jpg




i have a decent welding supply place here in town where i get all my welding stuff so they should have some, what did u use to crimp the lugs on the 2 guage wire? I had to replace the positive cable on my truck a while back and tried everything i could to crimp it but couldnt then figured id need something made for it.

There's a clever trick for that, use a vice. A big one with a long arm and a low gear reduction. That's what I did. Usually I don't trust anything but solder, but on the larger wires when you really crush those things on they won't come off for anything. Be sure to use heatshrink on the connections.

[ZZ4Blazer]

Add me to the list of owners with problems with optimas. I've had 6 if I recall right, in 3 different vehicles. Summit racing hates me,lol. Never again. However I've always had good luck with interstates. Were they always owned by interstate? I've got one that's prolly 5 years old in my work van, where's I've been through 2 cheaper batteries in 3 years in my tahoe. I plan on a pair of interstate dual posts in my tahoe as I would like a dual battery set up in mine too. I've got the factory dual trays on either side.

Pretty sure you already got a replacement alt, but really can't hurt to go bigger than you need. The 140 amp was an option and standard onn the police edition tahoes, however those were all the 350's. Never looked to see if the bb's used the same alts or not as them. On my tahoe, its a simple alt swap, new plug, and shorter belt. Thats planned at the same timeas the dual batts too

[sunburnedaz]

Hey 95burbanAZ if you need help I used to have a dual battery setup in my truck and I can help you out with all the wiring and such if you are willing to bring it up to phoenix.

[EastCoast]

You wire a solenoid exactly as you would a relay.

http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/productimages3/sk1949.jpg

Which is what you use to wire up other switchable 12-volt circuits (for foglights and whatnot)

http://www.all-neon-car-lights.com/images/relay-diagram.jpg

http://www.usautoelectric.com/image_manager/attributes/image/image_56/1097854235_4240694121.JPG

There's two large posts, you can think of those as the 30 (+ from aux bat) and 87 (+ to main batt)

and two smaller posts 86 (applies 12-volt power to close relay) and 85 (ground to chassis)

Whenever power is applied to the 86 post the solenoid will close with a loud click, connecting the two batteries and allowing the alternator to charge the discharged accessory battery, or the accessory battery to jumpstart the vehicle.

In other words:

http://www.oznium.com/images/wiring_diagrams/200-amp-battery-isolator-relay-diagram.jpg


So you don't need a battery isolator, you can just use a solenoid? The painless wireing kit uses a
Solid State Dual Battery Controller,
Digital Power Manager,
Start solenoid,
Momentary push-button switch,
and a remote indicator light.

Not sure if you need all that stuff or not? I just want to make sure everything will work ok.

[BurbanAZ]

Thanks for all the input, depending on money i might just buy the painless kit because i like the idea of having the 3 position switch, but if money is tight ill just do it with that solenoid.


Hey 95burbanAZ if you need help I used to have a dual battery setup in my truck and I can help you out with all the wiring and such if you are willing to bring it up to phoenix.

Thanks for the offer i should be fine but ill let u know if i have any issues.

I am definitely going to get this done soon because i worry that if i have to winch out again now its going to automatically ruin my alternator and ill have to cut whatever trip short again.

[Avec]

You could do something simple, along the lines of the stock diesel setup with a twist. My right side battery connects to the starter and the left side to the fuse block. There is a crossover cable between the positive posts from each battery. The alternator connects to the right side battery, but would charge the left via the crossover. You could run an extra wire from the alternator to the left battery, then add a cutoff switch like this between the two batteries:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/NEW-2-POST-HEAVY-DUTY-ALL-STEEL-BATTERY-MASTER-CUT-OFF-DISCONNECT-KILL-SWITCH-/00/s/NDAwWDM5Nw==/$%28KGrHqN,!jkE8F8jkMO1BPE3WJ2!gg~~60_12.JPG

This way, you could isolate the left battery, and keep the right battery ready to start the truck to go home.

On the inverter front, I have a 1000w inverter mounted under the passenger seat. I ran wires to have a toggle on/off switch in the dash along with a small LED to show that it is on and ran 110v to receptacles throughout the truck. There are four in the center console (one at each corner) and am going to run one to the third row seat and one to the tailgate area. I thought the fan noise would be annoying, but going down the road, you cannot hear it at all.

[2500ak]

Another thought is to measure resistance and voltage at the winch terminals. If the winch grounds through the bumper it might be a good idea to run a piece of heavy gauge cable, or a braided ground strap from a mounting bolt to the block or one of the batteries.

[BurbanAZ]

Another thought is to measure resistance and voltage at the winch terminals. If the winch grounds through the bumper it might be a good idea to run a piece of heavy gauge cable, or a braided ground strap from a mounting bolt to the block or one of the batteries. Yea thats a good idea, i cant remember but i think it is grounded through the bumper

[2500ak]

There's no such thing as too well grounded.

[BurbanAZ]

actually i checked and it does ground through a cable to the battery

[sparg93]

I haven't read all the responses, but I thought I'd throw some ideas (running tight on time today).

I can see from your other posts your building an Expedition Rig...with that in mind, 105amp alternator won't even be close to keep up with your electrical needs. I run a 140a and still need a bit more.

As an example, your 12k pound winch is probably pulling from 300 - 500amps when it's running...they drain batteries really fast and place incredible loads on alternators.

Going with a dual battery is a great idea and is essentially required for expo rigs. I would also recommend running dual alternators. This will provide you with a backup (should one die and your deep in the woods) and spread the load out significantly across the alternators.

Dual alternators will provide immense charging power when the winch is running and allow you to isolate and create two complete electrical systems. I'm building mine right now and I will have one battery & one alternator just for the truck, accessories and the camper. The other alternator/battery will be JUST for lights. The winch will be the only item tied into both batteries.

Iraggi makes a dual alternator bracket that is of fantastic quality and a really good price point. Dominick owns the place and I can send you his email address if you like (just pm me).

For my rig I will be running a 140amp (lights) & 300amp (everything else). 300 is overkill for the second, but it wasn't too much more then a 220amp which is what i estimated I needed.

I'm not an expert, but setting it up this way makes sense to me :)

[sparg93]

There's no such thing as too well grounded.

Absolutely!

It's amazing how many fires and shorted out gear are started b/c of poor grounds. When offroading especially, there needs to be multiple grounds and they need to be done right! (i.e. don't use a damn wood screw to hold a 4ga wire to the body!)

[2500ak]

The way they ground these trucks is madness to begin with, the battery has a tiny little piece of 10 gauge grounding the battery to the frame, then a piece of 8 gauge grounding the battery to the alternator bracket, which grounds the block, the firewall is grounded off the block, and so is the starter motor. The transmission and transfer case actuator motor grounds off the frame (which is only grounded by that little piece of 10 gauge).

I actually had the block -> firewall ground work itself loose once. Gauge cluster started kicking on and off, then the t-case started trying to shift into 4-lo while I was doing about 35 mph downhill.

By the time I figured out the cause that ground had fried every electrical component in the 4wd system. The encoder motor/actuator, the dash switch, and the ATX controller module behind the dash.

After that I ran 2 gauge welding cable from the battery to the alt bracket, battery to the frame, and battery to the firewall. Also a block to firewall, and a chassis to cab for good measure.

[BurbanAZ]

i found a guy just down the street selling a new optima yellow top and said i could buy it from him for 90 bucks so im gonna go grab it tonight its this one
http://tucson.craigslist.org/pts/2849476826.html
should that work fine? also will i have issues doing a dual battery setup with 2 different types of batteries, if i keep my normal truck battery for starting etc.. and use the yellow top for accessories, lights, winch, etc..?

[BurbanAZ]

or should i just take out my current battery and use just the yellow top?

[2500ak]

Dual battery should be fine with two different types as long as they aren't hooked up together.

If you don't want to get a match set just get a diode isolator, hook the alt up to it and let it charge both batteries separately.

That or get a solenoid isolator and key it off of some switched 12-volt source so they're only hooked up when the engine is running.

[BurbanAZ]

sorry for all the stupid questions, but thanks everyone for answering everything. How did u guys crimp the the connections on the wire? ive tried to crimp ends on to battery cable before that could not get it to work since the copper was so thick. I picked up a solenoid isolator so i just need to figure out how to get the cable the way i want it then i should be good. What did u guys for the battery cable connectors?

[2500ak]

For the smaller stuff you can use vice grips, but for bigger connections go strait for the bench vise. The connections will crush right on, be sure to seal them up with some heatshrink tubes.

The alternative is to use a butane torch and heavy duty solder to attach the lugs, I prefer the crimped on method myself.

[BurbanAZ]

yea ive tried the vice grips before and that never worked well, i didnt really try my bench vice, it seems like when i try stuff like that it just flattens but doesnt hold onto the wire, ill probably do a combo of both and try and crimp it but throw some solder in there also and heat shrink to finsih it. What would u recommend for wire gauge going between the batteries?

[sunburnedaz]

4gauge is big enough unless you are going crazy with it. You might want to see if a local welding supply place could crimp them for you. If you cant get that, try getting a small drift punch and punch down the center of the lug, then crush the sides of the lug in.

[BurbanAZ]

got everything together, got a solenoid isolator, cable, and lugs. The only fuses i could find with high enough aperage are these, I was thinking id just put the fuse on the connectors on the isolator then run the cable from those to the batteries on both sides. http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1366&bih=619&tbm=isch&tbnid=7cG5Acp5uIAnOM:&imgrefurl=http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_High-Ampere-Fuse-Pack---175-Amps-Bussmann_5170039-P_669_R%257CGRPLAMPAMS___&docid=Crms4SWGTvLMLM&imgurl=http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//669/large/5170039_bus_amg175_pri_larg.jpg&w=450&h=450&ei=UIFFT6m9GfSCsALT-qjDDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=662&vpy=24&dur=271&hovh=136&hovw=136&tx=61&ty=129&sig=103252849983110217564&page=5&tbnh=136&tbnw=136&start=95&ndsp=25&ved=0CPwDEK0DMGI

[EastCoast]

Why could you not just have power from the alt to the + batt and - batt to the frame?

[BurbanAZ]

Thanks for all the help everyone got everything set up today and works great. Made a battery tray with a plate to mount the isolator and got everything hooked up. I only ran one fuse between the isolator and the accessory battery, do i need the another between the isolator and the main battery? Heres a few pics, nothing special but should get the job done.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f235/cjcuk/b01d4c73.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f235/cjcuk/3298383c.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f235/cjcuk/89c0fba4.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f235/cjcuk/d9416a91.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f235/cjcuk/89ffec05.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f235/cjcuk/54214544.jpg

[2500ak]

A fuse on both sides is recommended. If the cable grounds out between the fuse and the main battery it'll still cause a short.

With that said trucks have been wired without fuses at all between their dual batteries for ages. The real concern is that if you get into an accident, or let the wires get really old and they ground out you could fry a battery.

Out of laziness I don't even have on fuse installed on my blue truck, the my old ford project truck didn't have one in the first place.

That tray looks really nice.

[BurbanAZ]

yea ill probably leave it with the single fuse then just because its a pain with both fuses just because of space. Thanks about the tray.

[LloydToo]

Concerning fusing:
- Nothing that I know of, or have seen, has a fuse at the battery solely for the purpose of fusing the main/big power cable, including semi trucks. There isn't one there from the factory either, It'd be way overkill and probably counter-productive due to voltage loss that's normal at every connection.
- Fuse or fusible link directly after/off of the alternator, that is stock and how everything, including semis, are.
- You will see a large fuse close to the battery on trucks that have a HUGE stereo system - that is to fuse the amplifier, NOT the battery.
- Fusing the winch would probably be a good idea BUT I would contact the winch manufacturer first as there is probably a thermal reset/breaker built into the winch. Again, every electrical connection, no matter how good, has some current and voltage loss across it - if not recommended by the mfg I wouldn't put one in.
- Remember K.I.S.S.: keep it simple, stupid. It applies even more so the farther from home and civilization we are.

Grounds:
- EXTREMELY important yet very often not even thought about.
- Run as thick of a cable as you can directly between high-draw devices that are used for any period of time. A winch and a high-power audio amplifier are prime examples of that. The starter really isn't, unless you are running a very high-amp one to start a high compression engine, because it is only used for seconds at a time.
- Think of a winch as a starter motor that turns for many seconds, and at times minutes, without stop. I would run a cable from the winch ground (mounting bolt usually) to the battery negative that's the same size as your battery positive. Yes, that's over-kill, I BELIEVE the rule-of-thumb is 2 sizes less than your power-in cable (that size should be recommended by the winch mfg), and never needs to be larger than 4ga, possibly 2ga on semis (been 20 years since I learned that in school).
- The same applies for high-poewer off-road lights, 4ga should be plenty for any bank of them if not over-kill.
- Run a large ground from battery to frame(chassis). Use that connection/bolt as a "junction block", running the same size cable to the block, and a 4ga or larger to the body/firewall. IF you have a rear-mounted winch it is VERY important to run a large cable from it to the battery due to distance. Feel free to run a separate ground from your lighting bank to the same bolt/"junction block".
- Electricity runs/travels in a circle. The current/power is mostly used up at the source (winch, lights, amp, starter motor, etc) BUT voltage needs a way to get back into the battery. That voltage does carry some current, just not as much as the source "needs". IF this wire/line/cable is too small it "chokes down", causing resistance, the path for the voltage to return, which causes all sorts of problems that are usually associated with "not enough power, bad connection, runs slow, dim lights, etc".
- Make sure the ground connections are as good and clean as you know the positive connections need to be.

I realize this is my first post but I'll make this short: Associates Degree in Automotive Lab Technology (think: Jr. Engineer, test cell employee, and such); and ASE Certified Technician- Master Auto, and 2- H.D. Truck (I haven't renewed them, I'm not current, but could be if I retook the tests - just being honest); have been employed at corner garage, high-tech shop, towing company(driver and in charge of fleet maintenance), and HD truck shop, and; have done many side jobs to also put food on the table and pay the mtg. I trashed my back 11/98, have had 2 spinal fusions, and am disabled due to it ever since. I've also owned/managed/maintained income properties(sold due to my back) and had a small retail gun store that was also sold due to my back. I'll be 44 in 7 days.

Hope this helps explain and clarify the how's and why's. Feel free to email me if you have questions or if I haven't responded on here in a couple of days if someone asks a question of me. No, I am not some kind of mechanical God and hope I didn't come across as a know-it-all.

[2500ak]

Concerning fusing:
- Nothing that I know of, or have seen, has a fuse at the battery solely for the purpose of fusing the main/big power cable, including semi trucks. There isn't one there from the factory either, It'd be way overkill and probably counter-productive due to voltage loss that's normal at every connection.
- Fuse or fusible link directly after/off of the alternator, that is stock and how everything, including semis, are.
- You will see a large fuse close to the battery on trucks that have a HUGE stereo system - that is to fuse the amplifier, NOT the battery.
- Fusing the winch would probably be a good idea BUT I would contact the winch manufacturer first as there is probably a thermal reset/breaker built into the winch. Again, every electrical connection, no matter how good, has some current and voltage loss across it - if not recommended by the mfg I wouldn't put one in.
- Remember K.I.S.S.: keep it simple, stupid. It applies even more so the farther from home and civilization we are.

Grounds:
- EXTREMELY important yet very often not even thought about.
- Run as thick of a cable as you can directly between high-draw devices that are used for any period of time. A winch and a high-power audio amplifier are prime examples of that. The starter really isn't, unless you are running a very high-amp one to start a high compression engine, because it is only used for seconds at a time.
- Think of a winch as a starter motor that turns for many seconds, and at times minutes, without stop. I would run a cable from the winch ground (mounting bolt usually) to the battery negative that's the same size as your battery positive. Yes, that's over-kill, I BELIEVE the rule-of-thumb is 2 sizes less than your power-in cable (that size should be recommended by the winch mfg), and never needs to be larger than 4ga, possibly 2ga on semis (been 20 years since I learned that in school).
- The same applies for high-poewer off-road lights, 4ga should be plenty for any bank of them if not over-kill.
- Run a large ground from battery to frame(chassis). Use that connection/bolt as a "junction block", running the same size cable to the block, and a 4ga or larger to the body/firewall. IF you have a rear-mounted winch it is VERY important to run a large cable from it to the battery due to distance. Feel free to run a separate ground from your lighting bank to the same bolt/"junction block".
- Electricity runs/travels in a circle. The current/power is mostly used up at the source (winch, lights, amp, starter motor, etc) BUT voltage needs a way to get back into the battery. That voltage does carry some current, just not as much as the source "needs". IF this wire/line/cable is too small it "chokes down", causing resistance, the path for the voltage to return, which causes all sorts of problems that are usually associated with "not enough power, bad connection, runs slow, dim lights, etc".
- Make sure the ground connections are as good and clean as you know the positive connections need to be.

I realize this is my first post but I'll make this short: Associates Degree in Automotive Lab Technology (think: Jr. Engineer, test cell employee, and such); and ASE Certified Technician- Master Auto, and 2- H.D. Truck (I haven't renewed them, I'm not current, but could be if I retook the tests - just being honest); have been employed at corner garage, high-tech shop, towing company(driver and in charge of fleet maintenance), and HD truck shop, and; have done many side jobs to also put food on the table and pay the mtg. I trashed my back 11/98, have had 2 spinal fusions, and am disabled due to it ever since. I've also owned/managed/maintained income properties(sold due to my back) and had a small retail gun store that was also sold due to my back. I'll be 44 in 7 days.

Hope this helps explain and clarify the how's and why's. Feel free to email me if you have questions or if I haven't responded on here in a couple of days if someone asks a question of me. No, I am not some kind of mechanical God and hope I didn't come across as a know-it-all.



I agree on the grounds, but I still think that a megafuse or a circuit breaker any cable that comes off a battery that is 4 gauge or larger is a good practice, maybe not necessary but a good practice. I've seen batteries blow up off-road, and it's not pretty.

On a stock application the wires going from the battery to the distribution block, alternator, and the starter solenoid are usually fairly high gauge. I think GM uses 8 gauge iirc. That could start a fire, but take a piece of 2 gauge and short the battery terminals and the battery will almost certainly explode.

[BurbanAZ]

good points, i do have my winch wired positive and negative to my battery using around 4 ga for both. Also both my batteries have 4 ga ground cables bolted to the block. This year truck seems to have a pretty decent ground not one of the "wood screws in the sheet metal" type set ups. I did use 16 ga for just the solenoid 12v source and ground, is that fine?

[2500ak]

16-gauge for the low power side of a relay or solenoid isolator should be plenty sufficient.

[LloydToo]

Yeah, you're fine for 16ga on the solenoid side.

I bet if you looked at the set-up on the batteries that exploded you'd find inferior battery mounting and/or cable runs/securing. Holding a battery down with a bungee cord and using a zip-tie every 18 inches is begging the off-road gods to intervene with a stiff dose of back-hand....

[2500ak]

Yeah, you're fine for 16ga on the solenoid side.

I bet if you looked at the set-up on the batteries that exploded you'd find inferior battery mounting and/or cable runs/securing. Holding a battery down with a bungee cord and using a zip-tie every 18 inches is begging the off-road gods to intervene with a stiff dose of back-hand....

Once was on a diesel with 2 1000 cca batteries. They were old, and connected with 0 gauge welding wire. Those went off like a gunshot, blew themselves to smithereens.

On my project truck the original wiring was 2 gauge and chafed threw. Granted the battery didn't explode and fortunately it was the winch battery with an isolator in between it so the main batt was alright. It just ruptured the cells and leaked all the fluid out.

Can't speak to the other ones I've seen because I wasn't integral to their repair, but I agree about battery tie downs. I've seen way too many loose batteries, or batteries that are poorly secured. My project truck came with batteries held down with tailpipe hanger and sheet metal screws. Didn't waste any time amending that.