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TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

This is a discussion on TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno within the Performance forums, part of the General Discussion category; what about vortec block and 062 heads,LT1 cam from 95 trans am 9.5.1cr,590 cfm tbi?no go huh?...

  1. #101
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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno


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    what about vortec block and 062 heads,LT1 cam from 95 trans am 9.5.1cr,590 cfm tbi?no go huh?
    Last edited by chevy_addicted; 04-05-2008 at 10:17 AM.

  2. #102
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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue71
    I run the same kit, 19lbs injectors with 60 lbs of fuel pressure will support up to 300-330 hp. no problem, maybe more, just need to install a Lt1 ajustable regulator.

    To bad edelbrock injectors jump from 19lbs to 29lbs, some 24's would have been better.

    A few people on the board can set up a TBI pcm to run in PFI mode, HaulnA$$ is one of them.
    So just going to a bigger injector wont support 400+ hp though, huh? I know if I install better heads and a cam with the right injection system my 383 would make 450 hp and 550 trq. If I were to run 58cc heads my CR would probably be around 11:1 or higher. Then I'd have to run racing fuel...thats scary!

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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

    Red94Chev,

    I found a Trick Flow top end kit on Summit's website. Can you run this setup in Desktop Dyno, with ultimate TBI mods? I believe the cam is similar to your Crane Cams truck cam.

    http://store.summitracing.com/partde...&view=1&N=700+

    Can you also run this cam?

    http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku

  4. #104
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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

    Here's a tutorial on how to use Desktop Dyno to do your own engine sims. I'll use an example of an actual dynoed engine to illustrate the process. Horsepower TV on the Spike network did a "Best Bang for your Buck" series using a GMPP 350 290hp engine. The specs of the engine and dyno results can be found here: http://www.powerblocktv.com/sites/bang4buck/0602/. In summary, they turned the GM 350 crate engine with 290hp-326 ft/lbs into a 412hp-420 ft-lbs performance engine with a complete bolt-on top-end kit from Edelbrock. Looks like they partnered with Summitracing.com and you can even buy this exact combination for $2770.75 using the part# SUM-CBB2 at the Summitracing.com website. I wouldn't reccommend this combination for a truck, but for a lighter street car with a 3000 RPM stall and 3.70+ gears, this is a pretty wicked combination. Click on the video to see the actual build-up and dyno run. So what would be the predicted results using the DD2003 software? Let's find out...

    STEP 1: You’re going to need to buy the software. Or alternatively, you can download a pirated copy of the software from sites like Torrentspy and Isohunt. You will need to be familiar with working with torrent files. An additional program is needed to help you download the file, like Bittorrent or Azureus. If you want more info on how to use these programs, search Google, go to the Bittorrent website, or read the Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.torrent

    STEP 2: Install the software and start inputting the engine parameters. There are several sections shown in the figure below: Short block, Cylinder heads, Compression, Induction, Exhaust, and Camshaft sections.



    STEP 3 - SHORT BLOCK: This one is pretty easy. If you have 350 engine, click the drop-down arrow and choose Chevy > 8 cylinder SB > 350 V8. The rest of the table is formatted for the standard 350 engine. Now if you have rebuilt your engine 0.030 over, you would change the bore size to 4.030. Notice when you do this, the cid calculated is now 355 ci. You can also choose a 383 V8 SB, a common upgrade for the 350 engine.

    STEP 4 - CYLINDER HEADS: Here’s where things get a little more complicated. In order to get accurate simulations, it is best to look up the actual flow data from the manufacturers’ website. The program, depending on the software version and whether you actually paid for the software, comes with some cylinder head data for most common OEM production and aftermarket heads. You can select a particular head for your virtual engine to see the performance results. However, I prefer to enter in the head flow data. For the Edelbrock E-tec cylinder heads and others, the flow data can be found here: http://www.purplesagetradingpost.com...fo/heads1.html. In this section of the software, click the airflow button and enter the specs as shown below.



    You will also need to enter the intake and exhaust valve size. For the Etec heads, it is 1.94" on the intake side and 1.5" on the exhaust.

    STEP 5 - COMPRESSION: In this case, the Horsepower TV video states the engine compression of 9.5:1, so we’ll enter that into the compression ratio area. If you need to calculate the CR of your engine, you can click on the CR button. Most pistons have valve reliefs, but you don’t need to click on the piston with valve reliefs. I find it more confusing since you cannot zero your piston to the deck height @ TDC. You just have to enter a number that is equivalent to the cc dish of your pistons. These are the common parameters: head chamber (58cc, 62cc, 64cc, or 76cc), gasket bore (4.000”, 4.030”, or 4.060”), gasket thickness (usually 0.028” or 0.051” for GM gaskets; you’ll need to look-up the thickness for Fel-pro gaskets), piston down bore (# in inches that is equivalent to piston cc valve reliefs). For my engine, I would enter 62cc, 4.000”, 0.028”, and 0.0874” to give me 18cc valve reliefs. My calculated engine compression ratio is 9.36:1. Entering this data allows you to calculate what your compression ratio would be if you: 1) changed cylinder heads (58cc for example), or changed engine displacement (either with a 0.030” or 0.060” rebuild or a 383 SB stroker engine. Using the same heads, compression ratio of would be 10.1:1 on a 383 short block with all parameters the same. This would be the max limit using pump gas and aluminum heads. 9.5:1 is roughly your limit with iron heads on pump gas.



    STEP 6 – INDUCTION: For the horsepower TV build, they are using a single plane intake so that is what is selected. They are also using a 800 cfm 4-barrel Edelbrock carb (@ 1.5 inHg), so that is entered as well. Flow data for 2-barrel carbs are usually at 3.0 inHg. The exception to this rule is the TBI throttle body, which flows 490 cfm at 1.5 inHg. A modded TB from CFMTech (aka ultimate TBI mods) would flow 590 cfm with the injectors or 620 cfm without the injectors. The TBI engine uses a standard dual plane intake. An air-gap performer RPM intake from Edelbrock would be equivalent to the high-flow, dual plane intake manifold type.

    STEP 7 - EXHAUST: If you have the stock log-type set-up, choose “stock manifolds and mufflers”. “HP manifolds and mufflers”, according to the user manual, corresponds to the ram-horn style manifolds. Shortie and long-tube headers are grouped together as “headers”, but separated into small tube and large tube headers. Small tube headers typically have 1-5/8” primaries or smaller, whereas the large tube headers have 1-3/4” primaries or larger. You can model with or without mufflers. There is no parameter for catalytic converters unfortunately. You could assume very little obstruction of flow when two 3” catalytic converters are being used. For the Horsepower TV engine build, small tube headers were used with 1-5/8” primaries. Mufflers were also installed on the engine during dyno runs.

    STEP 8 - CAMSHAFT: Here is another place where it is best to look up the specs from the camshaft manufacturers. There is two ways to enter the data; either using valve timing open/closing angles or camshaft duration angles (advertised seat-to-seat or specs at 0.050). You will also need to know the camshaft’s LSA and intake/exhaust centerline angles. DD2003 can use both advertised duration and 0.050 specs to calculate the ramp rate and therefore provide a better simulation when using aggressive high lift camshafts. Here is the cam card for the Comp cam in my ride to illustrate these values: http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Se...umber=08-502-8.

    For the horsepower TV engine, the camshaft used is a hydraulic roller retrofit camshaft #2201. The specs for the 2201 camshaft are: duration at 0.006 - 296/300, duration at 0.050 - 234/238, Lift w/ 1.5 rockers - 0.539”/0.548”, lift w/1.6 rockers - 0.575”/0.585”, LSA 112, intake centerline 107, exhaust centerline 117. The figure below shows the entered specs. In the video, the horsepower guys mention they are using 1.6 ratio roller rockers, so I’ll enter the higher lift data.



    Do I use the data based on advertised duration (0.006) or the specs at 0.050? According to the user manual for the software, seat-to-seat duration is the most accurate, but occasionally I’ve found that with higher duration camshafts, using valve opening based on 0.050 specs produce more accurate simulations (particularly in the low RPM torque estimates). In this case, the simulation using the 0.050 specs produced a result closer to the actual dyno results.

    STEP 9 - THE RESULTS: Shown below is the simulated dyno curve using DD2003 and the specs of the Horsepower TV 350 top end build. The program estimates 409 hp at 6000 RPM and 407 ft-lbs at 4500 RPM. The yellow block highlights the same RPM range given in the actual dyno results, the actual peak data being 411.8 hp at 5800 RPM and 419.8 @ 4500 RPM. Pretty dam close as you can see.



    Last edited by Red94Chev; 01-05-2008 at 07:06 PM.

  5. #105
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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

    Here is a useful tool from Comp Cams that takes the concept of engine simming one step further: http://www.compcams.com/Camquest/.

    Camquest version 6 is a FREE software download that uses the Desktop Dyno software engine and matches the proper camshaft to your engine combination. Very cool tool. You can also input the flow data from aftermarket heads just like Desktop Dyno and sim the hp/torque levels of your engine with different Comp Cams camshafts. There is also a video tutorial of how to use the software listed on the website. Check it out.

    This latest version of the Desktop Dyno engine also models the TBI intake manifold and exhaust systems with and w/o catalytic converters. It really takes the guesswork out of selecting the right parts for your engine build or upgrade. BTW, I use a Comp camshaft in my truck (8-502-08), a camshaft I selected after using Desktop Dyno to model my new engine. The Camquest software selected this camshaft as one of the top choices. Guess I did a good job.
    Last edited by Red94Chev; 01-18-2008 at 06:22 PM.

  6. #106
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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

    Quote Originally Posted by Red94Chev
    Here is a useful tool from Comp Cams that takes the concept of engine simming one step further: http://www.compcams.com/Camquest/...
    How accurate do you think this software is?
    :fsc:

    95 ecsb. Stock for now...

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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

    Quote Originally Posted by 2nd Time Round
    How accurate do you think this software is?
    Fairly accurate as long as you select/input the right info. The TBI/Vortec manifold modeling seems a little off, favoring low end torque numbers that seem unrealistic. Dual plane manifold selection is more in keeping with actual dyno results. There are also more options offered than DD2003 such as running exhaust with or without cats. Don't know how accurate that is either.

    I think the numbers are less important than the actual trend seen with the different cam choices. If you have accurate head flow data, you can also see if extra valve lift translates into better performance. You could compare different head combos with the same camshaft too. Stuff like that.

    The software comes with a users manual that helps you choose the "preferred" selection in each input area for more accurate simulations.
    Last edited by Red94Chev; 01-22-2008 at 02:20 PM.

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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

    Quote Originally Posted by Red94Chev
    Fairly accurate as long as you select/input the right info. The TBI/Vortec manifold modeling seems a little off, favoring low end torque numbers that seem unrealistic. Dual plane manifold selection is more in keeping with actual dyno results. There are also more options offered than DD2003 such as running exhaust with or without cats. Don't know how accurate that is either.

    I think the numbers are less important than the actual trend seen with the different cam choices. If you have accurate head flow data, you can also see if extra valve lift translates into better performance. You could compare different head combos with the same camshaft too. Stuff like that.

    The software comes with a users manual that helps you choose the "preferred" selection in each input area for more accurate simulations.

    I've been playing with it (Comp's Camquest 6) some. I thought the torque numbers were kinda high. Only have 250 horses but 435 ft/lbs. on some of the combos. From gas power to diesel power with only a cam and exhaust change!

    Started poking around and getting "spot-on" with things and torque dropped some but the horses went up. I'll have to model some of the dual planes. I didn't think of that.
    :fsc:

    95 ecsb. Stock for now...

  9. #109
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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

    Quote Originally Posted by Red94Chev View Post
    Some observations and discussion points:

    1. Exhaust mods give the biggest horsepower increases of all the mods followed by cam and head changes.

    2. Alum L98 heads produce better performance than stock TBI heads

    3. Vortec heads perform better than L98/TBI heads

    4. Trick Flow heads outperform Vortec heads and perform as well as ported Vortecs when used with cam and headers. These heads are direct replacements for your TBI heads and do not require a Vortec-compatible intake manifold or EGR mods with the driver's side exhaust manifold/header.

    5. AFR heads are arguably the best head one can buy, but their 68cc combustion chamber doesn't do it any favors. Near comparable performance compared to the Trick Flow heads. I was surprised by this, but then again, compression has a huge impact on performance. If the engine compression ratios were equal, the AFR heads would outperform the Trick Flows.

    6. The Edelbrock Performer Package and Edelbrock Centerbolt heads do not perform as well as components supplied from other manufacturers.

    7. Cost = Well, Vortecs are the cheapest hi-po head out there and there are many of these heads available in the bone yards. Stock Vortecs have about 320 hp potential with headers, cam, and other performance mods on a TBI-equipped engine. If you could port them yourself, then 336+ hp is possible. If you were to pay someone else to port your heads, all of a sudden, the aftermarket heads start to become a better deal. Remember to run Vortec heads, you'll have to buy Vortec/EGR-capable headers, a special Vortec TBI manifold that only GM sells right now ($$), and you may have to spring (pun intended) for new valve springs to accommodate higher lift cams greater than 0.470". Some of you guys will have an aftermarket TBI manifold and headers already on your engine. Putting Vortec heads on your TBI engine will probably cost more than you think when considering these "hidden" costs!! The dyno software shows Trick Flows were the best performing head as a bolt-on item for TBI engines and they cost just over $1000 for a pair. Prices are similar for the Edelbrock units. AFR's are much more expensive and theoretically perform better on any engine because of their awesome flow characteristics, but the lower compression generated as a bolt-on item does not make it an attractive choice considering the cost:performance ratio. If it were my money, I'd buy the Trick Flow heads!! (...and that's exactly what I did.)

    8. This was pretty fun!!
    ok i mliking the number, im looking to do a swap with this same engine and withthe mods you have shown, but instead of using votrec or trickflow heads, what compression would you have and hp if you used 305 tbi heads?

  10. #110
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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

    is there any way you can make one for me

    i just went threw the thread and didnt find the set up im looking towards

    so far i have a
    -4"x14" intake breather (like on imca)
    -long tube headers with true duels 3" exaust

    soon to get
    -a cam with mild lop but still to keep cal smog legal or atleast not get caught (summit racing)
    -msd multi spark and msd distributer


    if you could give me any info on that stuff with stock everything else i would be very greatful

    thanks
    travis
    Last edited by w.i.p.p; 02-02-2010 at 09:57 AM.

  11. #111
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    Re: TBI performance mods - Desktop Dyno

    im working on a 95 ext cab seirra unfortunately i use this truck for my remodeling buisness almost every day im slowly making mods on the weekends a cam and trickflow heads are coming will i have to make any drastic computer chip changes between these two projects

 

 
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