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083 VS 193 Heads

This is a discussion on 083 VS 193 Heads within the Performance forums, part of the General Discussion category; I was going to use 083 heads on my 83 Chevy 350. Its in a 1983 GMC G series based ...

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    Registered User avst03's Avatar
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    083 VS 193 Heads


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    I was going to use 083 heads on my 83 Chevy 350. Its in a 1983 GMC G series based motorhome weighing in at 10,000+lbs.

    Instead I'm thinking of using 193 heads. Hopefully there will be less tuning and hopefully more torque than the 083 route.

    Anyone tried out both heads? How did they perform in stock and mildly modified form ie: removing the sharp edges from casting
    This application is for a heavy beast so I'm kind of leaning towards the 193 cylinder heads, even though I ordered a set of 083s
    I will be running TBI on this engine with a stock 83 cam

    Thanks

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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    VORTECS!!!!

    I would actually use the 191/810 heads in your case. They are the HD TBI 350 heads, they are a swirl port design BUT have intake valve rotators and sodium filled exhaust valves for longer life. IIRC, the exhaust seats are a different material too. They will run practically forever in the P-series step vans and school buses they were put into.

    The 083 TPI castings will not make the same low-mid range torque that the TBI heads will, FACT. I don't care what the guys on Thirdgen.org had to say about it. I have run both sets on a 350, and also run 187 305 TBI heads and 081 TPI 305 heads on the same 305. In both cases the TBI heads made more HP and torque under 4,500 rpm with the mild cams.

    The 1983 cam is the same unit that came in the TBI trucks. Be sure to measure the valve lift of the cam while you have the intake off and everything apart. Cams in the early 80s were notorious for going flat.

    Your best gains by far will be long-tube headers with 1 1/2" primaries with 2 1/2-3" collectors. Then use a low-restriction 2-1 exhaust system, exiting into a single 3". This will be a quieter setup for the heavy motorhome that will boost the torque output, right were you need it, down low.

    Keep the stock TBI intake manifold, it works VERY well under 4,500 rpm compare to the aftermarket alternatives.

    http://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/show...hreadid=268064

    Then my engine build from a couple of years ago.

    http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tb...ght=garage+193

    Install some Vortecs with some exhaust porting and a Mellings MTC1 or Federal Mogul CS1014R camshaft and it will feel like you have 2 1983 350s under the hood, I promise you. The vortecs are lean fast burn heads which happen to flow very well.
    Last edited by Fast305; 03-17-2007 at 06:00 PM.
    1997 G1500 Cobra Conversion, 5.7, 4L80E, 3.73 14-bolt 9.5", L31 Marine Intake, CFM TB, 02 MAF, 0411, Custom cam. Doug Thorley Tri-Ys, full exhaust soon.

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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    Thanks for the reply Fast305

    Are there any major differences between the 191 and the 193 castings? Or is it just mainly to ID a head for a truck or car.

    Do the 191 cylinder heads have 64cc or 65cc combustion chambers?

    I would go the Vortec route if I didn't have a core charge and have to buy a Vortec intake.

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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    Quote Originally Posted by avst03
    Thanks for the reply Fast305

    Are there any major differences between the 191 and the 193 castings? Or is it just mainly to ID a head for a truck or car.

    Do the 191 cylinder heads have 64cc or 65cc combustion chambers?

    I would go the Vortec route if I didn't have a core charge and have to buy a Vortec intake.
    The heads are virtually identical, the differences being the valve stem size is 3/8" on the 191/810s vs. 5/16" on the LD 193 heads. The exhaust seats on the 191/810s are made out of a harder more heat resistant material, helps to keep from burning valves in a harsh HD environment.

    The 191/193/810 heads ALL have 64-66 cc chambers and 1.94/1.50" valves. ALL are swirl port design and all use the 1987-1995 canted center- bolt angle.

    I understand on the Vortecs, but IMO they would still be worth it, but I understand budgets.

    Finally, in case you did not know, I post as Fast355 on Thirdgen.org. Fast305=Fast355=ME
    1997 G1500 Cobra Conversion, 5.7, 4L80E, 3.73 14-bolt 9.5", L31 Marine Intake, CFM TB, 02 MAF, 0411, Custom cam. Doug Thorley Tri-Ys, full exhaust soon.

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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    Quote Originally Posted by Fast305
    Finally, in case you did not know, I post as Fast355 on Thirdgen.org. Fast305=Fast355=ME
    Yes, I noticed Fast305 + 50 =Fast355

    When did you complete the Vortec swap?
    Is there a good supplier of TBI marine parts?

    I'll be glad when my Motorhome has more horsepower than my Honda CRV

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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    Quote Originally Posted by avst03
    Yes, I noticed Fast305 + 50 =Fast355

    When did you complete the Vortec swap?
    Is there a good supplier of TBI marine parts?

    I'll be glad when my Motorhome has more horsepower than my Honda CRV

    I completed the Vortec swap last Sunday morning. Started Friday night after getting off work, worked on it for a couple of hours. Worked on it for about 4-5 hours on Saturday. Finished it on Sunday after about 2 hours (basically was done Saturday, but had to add coolant, change the oil, etc). Took me like 8 hours, start to finish for the Vortec head swap.

    As far as a TBI marine supplier, your best bet is looking over the Marine side of Ebaymotors. I got a deal on my NOS 2" bore Marine TBI unit there.

    I know you will be.
    Last edited by Fast305; 03-17-2007 at 11:46 PM.
    1997 G1500 Cobra Conversion, 5.7, 4L80E, 3.73 14-bolt 9.5", L31 Marine Intake, CFM TB, 02 MAF, 0411, Custom cam. Doug Thorley Tri-Ys, full exhaust soon.

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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    Fast305

    What head gasket do you think I should use.
    I was thinking of using a Victor Nitroseal 4.100" with a compressed thickness of .026"

    I have to run 87 octane fuel.
    I'm going to run EGR even though my vehicle didn't have it from the factory to control combustion temp.

    83 350 12cc dished pistons, pistons .027" in the hole.

    Thanks again

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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    Given the use in a 10,000 lb motorhome, I'd say maximum reistance to detonation and minimum spark advance would be good things to have.

    The 810/191/193 series (350 swirl port heads) sound perfect for your application, especially given what Fast wrote above, and given his prior work.... much of which is quoted in the following 083-vs-193 thread:

    http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tb...-headflow.html


    I'd also suggest you look for the web threads on the groove-in-squish region work. Again the idea is to increase the flame speed, and flame reach, in the combustion chamber to promote fastern burn in the cylinder and thereby require less spark advance. This leads to better use of the combustion heat (in making torque), reducing detonation, as well as reducing exhaust gas temps.

    One such thread is here:

    http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/more...es-108566.html

    There are also others here if you search:

    http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

    Here are two of them:

    http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...ghlight=groove

    http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...ighlight=singh

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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    Quote Originally Posted by kdrolt
    Given the use in a 10,000 lb motorhome, I'd say maximum reistance to detonation and minimum spark advance would be good things to have.

    The 810/191/193 series (350 swirl port heads) sound perfect for your application, especially given what Fast wrote above, and given his prior work.... much of which is quoted in the following 083-vs-193 thread:

    http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/tb...-headflow.html
    Started out with worn out 462624 heads told they there a total waste of time.
    So I started looking at Vortecs, 083s and now the 193/191/810 heads.

    I started thinking of using the 193/191 head after re-reading one of Fast3_5s posts and the post on thirdgen "TBI and TPI heads: headflow data" many times! Lots of info to go through great resource.

    I really don't want to have to machine grooves into the reman heads I'm getting.

    I just need to pick to the correct head gasket for this engine and cylinder head.

    I'm worried about the quench and the compression ratio.

    I felt guiltily asking questions on a Non F body topic at thirdgen.org but it's a Frontier motorhome so I guess its kind of an F body:-)

    Thanks

    Mike...

  10. #10
    technut
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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    wasnt the starting power on the 81-86 carbed 350's 165hp @ 8.3:1
    compression? with big 72cc chambers.
    the .026" gasket jump will move the compression from 8.3 to 8.6.
    shifting to the 64cc chamber and .026" gasket would move CR to
    9.22
    jetting a roddy 4bbl would be problematic as the "supply" of
    hop-up carb parts are slimming or expensive.
    a wide-band and plug check would be a must especially on 87 and
    5-tons....
    just an observation...

    airdeano
    2001 Silverado 4.8L 4-spd Automatic 3.42
    ? horsepower
    ? torque
    will find out soon!

    1965 C10 5.3L (SSR) TH4L60e
    (It's Alive! 07/04 It Drives! 03/05 Daily Driver XX/08!)

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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    Quote Originally Posted by airdeano
    wasnt the starting power on the 81-86 carbed 350's 165hp @ 8.3:1
    compression? with big 72cc chambers.
    the .026" gasket jump will move the compression from 8.3 to 8.6.
    shifting to the 64cc chamber and .026" gasket would move CR to
    9.22
    jetting a roddy 4bbl would be problematic as the "supply" of
    hop-up carb parts are slimming or expensive.
    a wide-band and plug check would be a must especially on 87 and
    5-tons....
    just an observation...

    airdeano
    I've seen horsepower ratings as low as 160hp for my engine.
    The beaded steel gasket that came with my 83 350 was .023" thick compressed.
    Im looking at composition gaskets that are between .026-.039 Im worried about quench with these gaskets.
    No more carbs for me!
    I'm switching from a Q-jet to TBI.
    Yes running a 5 ton vehicle at 9.2-9.3 to 1 will be a challenge

    Mike...

  12. #12
    technut
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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    mike,
    the "ideal" quench area on 23 cylinder heads is .035-.055"
    these would be gen I and gen II engines
    the "ideal" quench area on 15 cylinder heads is .035-.042"
    these would be gen III and LSx engines
    the .023 + the .027 "in the hole isnt really a super concern
    as the flame front is in the "dish" so the quench area under the
    cylinder head is almost mute.
    on a flat top itd be more crutial and more concerned for high
    rev as the valves may "touch" if this is too tight (gen III and
    LSx concern with larger valve and duration cams)
    id find the thinest shim gasket with the tightest or least
    cylinder edge exposure 4.06 or smaller gasket bore (detonation).

    airdeano
    2001 Silverado 4.8L 4-spd Automatic 3.42
    ? horsepower
    ? torque
    will find out soon!

    1965 C10 5.3L (SSR) TH4L60e
    (It's Alive! 07/04 It Drives! 03/05 Daily Driver XX/08!)

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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    I was trying to use composition type gaskets because the block surface is not getting machined just the old gasket removed and scrapped clean.
    The heads I'm getting are remanufactured ones 191/810

    The gasket bore sizes seem to be only available in 4.100" and 4.166" sizes. Is .050" from the gasket to the edge of the cylinder to much too little?

    If I use a .016 gasket with the piston in the hole .027" I'll have a compression ratio of about 9.5 to 1.
    Won't I be out of the range to run 87 octane at 9.5 to 1?

    Thanks
    Mike...

  14. #14
    technut
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    Re: 083 VS 193 Heads

    composition gaskets usually crush .032"
    the least amount of bore exposure the better for less
    chance of detonation.
    with a stock camshaft i believe itll be fine. with a tighter
    lobe speration angle (110-112) it would be prone to a burst
    knock (inital tip in).

    airdeano
    2001 Silverado 4.8L 4-spd Automatic 3.42
    ? horsepower
    ? torque
    will find out soon!

    1965 C10 5.3L (SSR) TH4L60e
    (It's Alive! 07/04 It Drives! 03/05 Daily Driver XX/08!)

 

 

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