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Intake air temp sensor for TBI

This is a discussion on Intake air temp sensor for TBI within the Performance forums, part of the General Discussion category; Ive been talking with Bob from DynamicEFI He mentioned I should install an intake air temp sensor. Does any one ...

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    Cajun Road Warrior dualtbi88's Avatar
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    Intake air temp sensor for TBI


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    Ive been talking with Bob from DynamicEFI He mentioned I should install an intake air temp sensor. Does any one out there have any advice on how to wire one up?
    Another problem, on a setup like mine where would be a good place to install one?
    Paul R
    88 Step Side Modified ZZ4 Offenhauser Cross Ram dual TBI, Crane roller cam, FJO injector driver. Hand built serpentine drive.
    still under construction

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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    quoted from Rbob over at thirdgen--
    "The bird cage style sensor has a faster response time then the solid style sensor. Otherwise the temperature parameter is the same, they are interchangeable. Not sure if the connectors are the same.

    For a bird cage style specify a '90-'92 Camaro w/a 3.1L engine.
    For a solid style specify a '90-'92 Camaro w/a 305 or 350 TPI engine.

    RBob."
    I have a birdcage IAT/MAT in my #8 runner in the intake manifold, also running EBL as you know. 2 wires--1 to ground the other to the pin in the ECM connector.
    I would probably drill and tap a spot in the back somewhere. maybe around mid-height from the bottom of the intake to the top of the plenum where the TBI's are mounted.

    -edit
    you'll need to swap to a 7427 setup to run IAT, or EBL, or some code editing stuff to make it work with the 7747.


    I bought mine from the dealer, where I usually buy all my sensors (more expensive, but I'd rather have genuine ACDelco parts) and mine came with the pigtail connector so I was good to go

    where's Fast305...
    Last edited by 91chevZ71; 01-20-2008 at 08:09 PM.
    91 K1500 ECSB
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    Cajun Road Warrior dualtbi88's Avatar
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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    Thanks, I'll look into that. I do plan to go with the EBL system very soon. This third party tuner stuff is not going to cut it for this setup. Brian is good but, but I think I need to do the tuning first hand. Besides this will give me the oportunity to learn a few new things.
    Paul R
    88 Step Side Modified ZZ4 Offenhauser Cross Ram dual TBI, Crane roller cam, FJO injector driver. Hand built serpentine drive.
    still under construction

  4. #4
    Tbi-MAX
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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    EBL is what you need with the birdcage IAT sensor.. the stock 7427 pcms in the trucks never came with a IAT sensor. its all in the tune, set to something of a high temp.. as the TBI factory intake was a heated intake manifold... and GM didnt feel the urge to put a IAT on my year truck and pcm..

    im sure your setup can run tons better, not even needing a IAT... but just needing the EBL and your self tuning..

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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    IAT really isn't a big deal on stock engines, but on modified engines it can help to optimize performance. Stock TBI engines (for trucks) don't really need IAT IMO. Changing the stock setup into a monster like you have would see some benefit from running an IAT, I would think. Plus, it's wet-flow, so having an IAT sensor (effectively MAT) in the fuel/air mixture would keep the computer's fuel changes to minimum on a good tune.
    -I say it isn't a big deal on unmodified stock engines because most stock air cleaner assemblies had some sort of pre-heat stuff
    FWIW
    F and Y bodies used MAT/IAT before the trucks got it.


    On a modified engine, why not have an IAT/MAT? It can only help, when used properly.
    e.g.
    don't put the IAT in the air cleaner with a TBI. ask me how I know

    The MAT really changes A LOT with my setup. Around this time of year, my average highway cruise MAT is around 60 deg F. (open element K&N)
    It will climb when idling, but when AE hits and the air/fuel starts moving again the manifold cools down

    The cool thing with the EBL and IAT is that you can change the preference for CTS vs IAT per g/sec airflow.
    Last edited by 91chevZ71; 01-21-2008 at 12:13 PM.
    91 K1500 ECSB
    LQ4/80E/241/60/14SF/4.88/38s
    98 2Dr Tahoe
    L31/0411/60E/241/4.10/285s
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    Cajun Road Warrior dualtbi88's Avatar
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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    Man I've got lots to learn, Funny I keep going back and forth with the EBL acronyms trying to keep up with the conversation
    Paul R
    88 Step Side Modified ZZ4 Offenhauser Cross Ram dual TBI, Crane roller cam, FJO injector driver. Hand built serpentine drive.
    still under construction

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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    Honestly man, the EBL with the 4 injector mod is tailor made for your setup. I know it's expensive, but when you factor in the cost of modding a 7427 and all the tuning equipment vs the EBL it makes sense to go EBL.
    I'm not trying to push the EBL whatsoever, I'm just a VERY satisfied customer. Any questions I have that aren't answered with the documentation are answered the same day I ask, FWIW


    not to mention the tech support we all have with FSC and TGO
    Last edited by 91chevZ71; 01-21-2008 at 01:13 PM.
    91 K1500 ECSB
    LQ4/80E/241/60/14SF/4.88/38s
    98 2Dr Tahoe
    L31/0411/60E/241/4.10/285s
    EFILive

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    Tbi-MAX
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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    well said Mike... it just takes alot of fine tuning with the IAT tables etc... yes, performance and mpg can be increased.. his engine in general will be a bear to tune.. im surprised that a mail order got it even running.. i too would push the EBL on him, especially since he doesnt have the electronic tranny, and like you said, its made for stuff like multiple tbis etc.. it would make his life very easy!

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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    Yes!!! EBL hear I come!!! lol.. I think the mail order chip thing was a wast of money to begin with. I was thinking wow, all I have to spend is a couple hundred dollars and I'm done. I learned the hard way that's rarely the case. I wish I had consulted you guys first. because of that I'm stuck rebuilding my short block because of tuning my engine with a very fat fuel table. I must have went through three sets of plugs before I started hearing a very loud pinging noise out the right exhaust pipe. Every time I would foul a plug I'd get a three foot blow torch out the exhaust pipe. The exhaust from the cat back would glow bright orange.

    If it wasn't for my wife's Christmas spending frenzy I'd be done with my truck by now. I can't see how a woman can spend $1,500.00 in three days of Christmas shopping mostly for her side of the family and think there's nothing wrong with that. Then bitch at me for spending less than $400.00 to get my truck fixed. where's the logic in that?
    Last edited by dualtbi88; 01-21-2008 at 03:13 PM.
    Paul R
    88 Step Side Modified ZZ4 Offenhauser Cross Ram dual TBI, Crane roller cam, FJO injector driver. Hand built serpentine drive.
    still under construction

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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    Quote Originally Posted by 91chevZ71
    don't put the IAT in the air cleaner with a TBI. ask me how I know
    How do you know? My 91 S10 has a stock 305 out of a 91 Caprice. Its TBI and has a IAT in the air cleaner. Just curious what problems you had experienced. Thanks
    1993 S10, 355ci.V8, Edelbrock MPFI, 2" TB, 6395 ECM, $0D Mask, Comp 280H Magnum cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, Lincoln Mark VIII e-fan, 4L60E, 8.8 rear, 8.80s @ 79 MPH (1/8 mile), and cost to much.

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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    I had my IAT originally in the K&N filter plastic tube, out near the cone-shaped filter.
    I didn't know any better...lol
    Anyway, the IAT's were about 80 degrees F (actually, more than that) higher than what I have now with the sensor in the manifold. This contributed to my lean closed loop operation, keeping AFR's above 14.7 consistently. Being in the middle of summer didn't help, either.
    Back then I also had the IAT controlling 15% MORE of the fuel vs CTS than I have now.
    Looking back, I had 3 problems which contributed to my lean operation
    1. O2 sensor values incorrect
    2. PRP values incorrect
    3. IAT placed incorrectly for my setup, and the above mentioned overcompensation

    Curious- does the L03 in the Caprice have one of the thermo-static air cleaners with a hot air pipe??
    -in stock trim?

    I was primarily talking about TBI trucks when I said they don't need IAT. If I was GM, I would see the benefit in giving the Caprice (cop cars?) IAT.

    -edit
    I asked Rbob where I should put the IAT for my setup, and I also asked him if there are differences in the code for an IAT(dry) vs. MAT(wet). I was thinking the math would be different for a saturated mass versus unsaturated.

    "For the MAT and IAT, there isn't anything in the code to differentiate
    between them. Just the blend table to blend it with the CTS: IAT/CTS -
    Blend Filter

    Some folks have been successful with an IAT in the manifold with TBI.
    This is one of those things that need to be tried out. I tried it
    while using the same blend values as for an true IAT. That didn't work
    too well. I have a vacuum tap for the VRFPR in that manifold port, so
    I can't easily try it again.

    I'm thinking that with less of a blend range, more toward the CTS
    side, may work better."


    I then mounted my IAT way out near the filter then later changed it to the manifold, where it has worked the best.
    Last edited by 91chevZ71; 01-21-2008 at 03:48 PM.
    91 K1500 ECSB
    LQ4/80E/241/60/14SF/4.88/38s
    98 2Dr Tahoe
    L31/0411/60E/241/4.10/285s
    EFILive

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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    here's a picture of my data when CTS is about 150, before thermostat opening


    sitting at a light


    This is after the thermostat has opened once or twice, and sitting at a light for a couple minutes
    Last edited by 91chevZ71; 01-21-2008 at 05:28 PM.
    91 K1500 ECSB
    LQ4/80E/241/60/14SF/4.88/38s
    98 2Dr Tahoe
    L31/0411/60E/241/4.10/285s
    EFILive

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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    Quote Originally Posted by 91chevZ71
    Curious- does the L03 in the Caprice have one of the thermo-static air cleaners with a hot air pipe??
    -in stock trim?
    Yes. The air cleaner is completely stock, but I didn't use the Caprice silencer. The air tube from the Caprice fit right over the stock S10 air tube going to radiator support. Shortened of coarse.
    Quote Originally Posted by 91chevZ71
    I was primarily talking about TBI trucks when I said they don't need IAT. If I was GM, I would see the benefit in giving the Caprice (cop cars?) IAT.
    Right again. Engine came from a detectives car.

    Thanks for all the great info.

    Earl
    1993 S10, 355ci.V8, Edelbrock MPFI, 2" TB, 6395 ECM, $0D Mask, Comp 280H Magnum cam, Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, Lincoln Mark VIII e-fan, 4L60E, 8.8 rear, 8.80s @ 79 MPH (1/8 mile), and cost to much.

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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    I'm definitely going to be referencing this thread a lot when getting my setup back together. Since I'm tearing my short block apart I'm considering going with a 400 crank which in my block would make a 388 c.i.d. because of the .060 over bore.
    Paul R
    88 Step Side Modified ZZ4 Offenhauser Cross Ram dual TBI, Crane roller cam, FJO injector driver. Hand built serpentine drive.
    still under construction

  15. #15
    Tbi-MAX
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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    Quote Originally Posted by 91chevZ71
    Curious- does the L03 in the Caprice have one of the thermo-static air cleaners with a hot air pipe??
    -in stock trim?

    I was primarily talking about TBI trucks when I said they don't need IAT. If I was GM, I would see the benefit in giving the Caprice (cop cars?) IAT.
    yes i believe, the caprice has a thermo-static air cleaner with hot air connected to the exhaust manifold all stock. The caprice also has the IAT in the stock air cleaner... ill check my caprice this weekend again.
    Last edited by Tbi-MAX; 01-23-2008 at 08:04 AM.

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    Re: Intake air temp sensor for TBI

    My manifold is fully heated, being the GMPP TBI Vortec. Cool thing about it (I guess) is that it retains the stock coolant flow locations, so it has the same heater core line back near the dizzy so the coolant is circulated through the manifold's front and rear. Being heated helps to maintain a RELATIVELY constant MAT for each driving condition (idle, cruise, accel, hard accel, WOT).
    The Edelbrock air gap manifold would probably REQUIRE a temp sensor. I have never run one, but if you think about it the rational decision would be to install one. Over at thirdgen.org there's a guy running suped-up TBI setup with the air gap in an F-body, and he's said that the air gap will actually frost up. Why run an un-heated/air gap manifold? cooler air is more dense, more air molecules=more fuel molecules, etc, etc, we all know this already
    I would think that this frosty condition would cause some pretty serious driveability issues but with tuning it could be fixed.
    EBL has some good AE adjustment tables, to include CTS and IAT factoring when calculating for AE, RPM compensation, as well as the normal delta TPS and MAP changes. MAP and TPS filtering are also included in EBL's code. I'm not sure how the stock $42/$0D masks can compare to EBL in this area, for I'm on campus right now so I can't look at my stuff.
    Last edited by 91chevZ71; 01-23-2008 at 09:29 AM.
    91 K1500 ECSB
    LQ4/80E/241/60/14SF/4.88/38s
    98 2Dr Tahoe
    L31/0411/60E/241/4.10/285s
    EFILive

 

 

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