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5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

This is a discussion on 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance? within the Port Injection (96+ / OBD-II) forums, part of the Performance category; I'm working on my test bench for a '0411 / Vortec wiring harness. I've placed the crank position sensor and ...

  1. #1
    Registered User dave w's Avatar
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    5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?


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    I'm working on my test bench for a '0411 / Vortec wiring harness. I've placed the crank position sensor and cam position sensor "In Sync" with my test bench fixture. Anyway, I Water Jet cut a crank reluctor ring and the clearances are not equal between the reluctor teeth and sensor. I know, I should have spent the extra $$$ to have the crank reluctor ring Wire EDM cut. I am wondering if anyone knows the tolerances / clearances for the Vortec 5.7 Crank Position Sensor?

    Additional information about my project:
    http://www.fullsizechevy.com/showthr...-Alone-Harness

    http://www.fullsizechevy.com/showthr...le-help-needed

    Thanks in advance,
    dave w









    Last edited by dave w; 11-06-2010 at 08:00 PM.

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    Registered User genebingaman's Avatar
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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    distance between the sensor and ring really doesnt matter i think its supposed to be around 40 thousanths but i do know that if it is closer or farther by a little bit then it wont make a difference all what the sensor does is magnetically "pickup" a signal so as long as there is the same amount of teeth and voids and it is set up in a orientation where the sensor can see those then it will work accordingly


    just to add the way you have the sensor mounted maybe why it wont work right move the sensor to the top side of the ring looking down at it on its outer circumference
    Last edited by genebingaman; 11-07-2010 at 11:54 AM.

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    Registered User dave w's Avatar
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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    Quote Originally Posted by genebingaman View Post
    distance between the sensor and ring really doesnt matter i think its supposed to be around 40 thousanths but i do know
    Sensor will sometimes begin to work at 0.020", but not at 0.040"! Sensor even works at 0.005" The way I have sensor positioned works great. The ring is out of round by about 0.012" So when I set the sensor to 0.015" (big gap side) the other side (small gap side) is only 0.003". Everything was working great, then the small side gap hit the sensor. Now it does not work. I'm going to set the wheel in a lathe and get it round.

    dave w

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    No More Mr Niceguy xch3no2's Avatar
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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    Jeeze sry, I saw this earlier & forgot to reply, given the bad answer that was posted would get you nowhere.

    I guess you figured it out... .020" is max & you don't need it closer than .012".
    Test benches rock, later.
    89 K3500 RCLB- Fat Snarling RAT..Scat/Eagle/Crower/Crane/Edelbrock/MSD..TBI/EBL/TH400/Dana 60

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    Registered User dave w's Avatar
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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    I sort of do test benches for a living ... well for industrial measurement equipment. I also sort of do CAD for a living.

    dave w

    Last edited by dave w; 11-07-2010 at 07:59 PM.

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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    I have a question for you about your tone wheel? How much crank duration does the crank sensor need to see to work? DOes the PCM read TDC at the midpoint of the tone wheel notch, or the beginning or end of it? I ask because I am trying to figure out how to swap an 0411 ECM for an engine it never came on, and I'm trying to figure out what length the tone wheel tooth needs to be to function without the ECM throwing a fit.
    1995 GMC 2500 SUBURBAN, DURAMAX/ALLISON, 3.42 gears, 261 T-case, ALTO's for C1-C4, PI ML converter, DIAMONDEYE 4" exhaust, CORSA muffler, AFE stage 1 dry filter, EFILIVE, KENNEDY single pump, pump rub kit.

    http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/sho...URAMAX-ALLISON

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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    Quote Originally Posted by thefermanator View Post
    I have a question for you about your tone wheel? How much crank duration does the crank sensor need to see to work? DOes the PCM read TDC at the midpoint of the tone wheel notch, or the beginning or end of it? I ask because I am trying to figure out how to swap an 0411 ECM for an engine it never came on, and I'm trying to figure out what length the tone wheel tooth needs to be to function without the ECM throwing a fit.
    That's not an easy answer! The '0411 PCM can be programmed for a low resolution crank position sensor which is used in the Vortec 5.7 liter engine in the 2001 / 2002 Chevy Express Van. The low resolution crank sensor uses the same distributor as the Vortec L31 distributor, which has a 1x cam position sensor. I measured the Vortec 4 position reluctor wheel, see picture below. When the crank rotates 90 degrees the distributor will rotate 45 degrees. So for my test bench I designed an 8 tooth reluctor wheel to stay in sync with the Vortec distributor, because the crank sensor and cam position sensor will be spinning together.

    If I were to design a low resolution crank reluctor wheel for a V8 engine, I would use a 4 tooth wheel mounted to the harmonic balancer. I would reverse engineer the 4 tooth wheel based on the diameter needed to fit / clear the new engine. The Vortec reluctor wheel is about 4" diameter. The factory 4 tooth design is "high" for about 30 degrees, and "low" for about 60 degrees. The CAD program I use makes it easy for me to design the correct geometry.

    See the crank position sensor from FAST: http://www.fuelairspark.com/Products...gers%27-0.aspx
    The FAST crank position sensor won't work with a '0411 PCM, but shows the basic idea of a 4 tooth reluctor wheel.

    dave w

    Last edited by dave w; 11-11-2010 at 01:35 AM.

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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    The 0411 swap I'm planning on isn't a V-8, it isn't even a V-6, HE!! it isn't even a GM. I'm trying to figure out an economical way to get programmable fuel injection for my JEEP inline 6 stroker motor I'm building. The JEEP uses a crank sensor mounted in the bellhousing already, I just need to know how to cut the teeth so the 0411 PCM can read it. I've worked out most of the details in theory so far, but need to figure out where TDC is at in relation to the tone wheel and crank sensor in an old school VORTEC engine. I plan on running a 4.3L OS from an S-10, an 0411 PCM, mostly GM sensors(I'll use a JEEP TPS for simplicity, JEEP crank sensor 3 wire hall effect style, and a JEEP distributor which already uses a 1 pulse for TDC on #1 with a 3 wire hall effect pick-up). I just haven't been able to find out yet if the ECM sees TDC at the beginning of the tone wheel tooth, the middle, or the end of it.
    1995 GMC 2500 SUBURBAN, DURAMAX/ALLISON, 3.42 gears, 261 T-case, ALTO's for C1-C4, PI ML converter, DIAMONDEYE 4" exhaust, CORSA muffler, AFE stage 1 dry filter, EFILIVE, KENNEDY single pump, pump rub kit.

    http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/sho...URAMAX-ALLISON

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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    I would look into a 1996-2002 Vortec 4.3 V6 3x reluctor wheel. If it works on a V6, it will work on an I-6. I think the PCM finds TDC through the combination of the 3x reluctor wheel along with the 1x camshaft sensor.

    With the 3x and 4x wheels, I dont think its possible for the PCm to know where TDC is or any crank on its own. At least in the GM system. But I certainly could be wrong. Maybe the cam sensor is need for the sequential injection and not for ignition??

    The 411 PCM also works with a 24x crank reluctor and 1x cam sensor on the L21 7.4(454) medium duty engine, as well as the LS1 Camaro(cable throttle) and the Corvette LS1(ETC Electronic Throttle Control). All three of these engines use 8 coild near plug(CNP) ignitions.
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    Registered User dave w's Avatar
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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    Quote Originally Posted by thefermanator View Post
    The 0411 swap I'm planning on isn't a V-8, it isn't even a V-6, HE!! it isn't even a GM. I'm trying to figure out an economical way to get programmable fuel injection for my JEEP inline 6 stroker motor I'm building. The JEEP uses a crank sensor mounted in the bellhousing already, I just need to know how to cut the teeth so the 0411 PCM can read it. I've worked out most of the details in theory so far, but need to figure out where TDC is at in relation to the tone wheel and crank sensor in an old school VORTEC engine. I plan on running a 4.3L OS from an S-10, an 0411 PCM, mostly GM sensors(I'll use a JEEP TPS for simplicity, JEEP crank sensor 3 wire hall effect style, and a JEEP distributor which already uses a 1 pulse for TDC on #1 with a 3 wire hall effect pick-up). I just haven't been able to find out yet if the ECM sees TDC at the beginning of the tone wheel tooth, the middle, or the end of it.
    Very interesting project to adapt the '0411 PCM to a Jeep I-6. I think there are several options to achieving the adaptation of the '0411 PCM on a Jeep I-6. I think I'd reverse engineer the GM 4.3 V6 crank position sensor reluctor ring to work on the Jeep I-6. My first thought would be make a reluctor ring fit the harmonic balancer, and not be concerned with the Jeep flywheel reluctor. There is also the option of reverse engineering a new design for the Jeep I-6 flywheel reluctor ring?

    Here is another scree shot from my CAD program, not sure if this is going to help? There is a huge amount of information in this screen shot!

    Honestly, I think buying the $2500 Mopar MPFI system for the Jeep is the way to go. The EFI Live Flash Scan V2 hardware / software I purchased was $800. Reverse engineering is not really a low cost option? CAD programs are not low cost either! It's almost impossible to get a custom one-off part made like my reluctor ring without CAD files!!!! It takes very accurate design / measurements that CAD programs do, make a trigger wheel work like a factory part.

    dave w


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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    I already own a V2 for my DURAMAX SUBURBAN, so it makes sense to use it since I have it currently. The flywheel I have is a 87-90 RENIX style which is a perfect canidate for this conversion as it already uses raised teeth(just need to have some milled off and weld together a few to get the correct crank sensor duration reading for the PCM), and the stock JEEP distributor already incorporates a single window hall effect trigger in it.

    Heres a link to my post about it at EFILIVES forum.
    http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....gine-to-GM-PCM
    1995 GMC 2500 SUBURBAN, DURAMAX/ALLISON, 3.42 gears, 261 T-case, ALTO's for C1-C4, PI ML converter, DIAMONDEYE 4" exhaust, CORSA muffler, AFE stage 1 dry filter, EFILIVE, KENNEDY single pump, pump rub kit.

    http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/sho...URAMAX-ALLISON

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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    Ok, I see your point, it would make sense to use the EFI Live V2 system you have.

    I used CAD to draw what I think the GM 4.3 Vortec uses for crank position reluctor wheel (low resolution). I don't actually have a 4.3 V6 reluctor to measure. I think each segment is 60 degrees. From what I can tell, the GM crank position sensor triggers on the trailing edge. Align #1 cylinder to TDC (compression stroke), and position the crank position sensor so half of the sensor is over the high side of the reluctor. This is the position I have pictured for the crank reluctor and crank position sensor of my test bench.

    dave w


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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    I found a pic of a 4.3L reluctor, so now I can see just how much of a span I need for the crank sensor to read.

    1995 GMC 2500 SUBURBAN, DURAMAX/ALLISON, 3.42 gears, 261 T-case, ALTO's for C1-C4, PI ML converter, DIAMONDEYE 4" exhaust, CORSA muffler, AFE stage 1 dry filter, EFILIVE, KENNEDY single pump, pump rub kit.

    http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/sho...URAMAX-ALLISON

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    Registered User dave w's Avatar
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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    Quote Originally Posted by thefermanator View Post
    I found a pic of a 4.3L reluctor, so now I can see just how much of a span I need for the crank sensor to read.
    The sensor position is very critical! The span on the crank is also very critical! In theory I think your idea of modifying the flywheel will work. I will say, based on my experience and measurements to get my test bench fully functional, your measurements / final parts assembly will need to be accurate to less than 0.005"!

    I found out the hard way, if the measurements / final parts assembly are off by more than 0.005" the injectors will not turn on!

    dave w

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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    That is why I want to stick with my current flywheel and JEEP crank sensors as this will maintain a proven trigger system. It appears as though the ECM wants to see 60 degrees of dead time on the crank sensor and 60 degrees of on time for a 4.3L and 30 degrees for a V-8. So I just need to weld together my teeth and have them machined flush again with a lathe, then measure em out to get the 60 on and 60 off that the 4.3L uses and I should be set.
    1995 GMC 2500 SUBURBAN, DURAMAX/ALLISON, 3.42 gears, 261 T-case, ALTO's for C1-C4, PI ML converter, DIAMONDEYE 4" exhaust, CORSA muffler, AFE stage 1 dry filter, EFILIVE, KENNEDY single pump, pump rub kit.

    http://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/sho...URAMAX-ALLISON

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    Registered User dave w's Avatar
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    Re: 5.7 Liter Vortec Crank Position Sensor Clearance?

    Quote Originally Posted by thefermanator View Post
    That is why I want to stick with my current flywheel and JEEP crank sensors as this will maintain a proven trigger system. It appears as though the ECM wants to see 60 degrees of dead time on the crank sensor and 60 degrees of on time for a 4.3L and 30 degrees for a V-8. So I just need to weld together my teeth and have them machined flush again with a lathe, then measure em out to get the 60 on and 60 off that the 4.3L uses and I should be set.
    Very sound theory / plan to modify the Jeep flywheel. When I measured my L31 V8 reluctor ring, I actually measured slightly more than the 30 degrees (high side) and slightly less than 60 degrees (low side). I have not measured a 4.3 reluctor ring, so I don't know if it will exactly measure 60 degrees high / low. I'm thinking it's going to measure something close to 60 degrees, but not exactly! So how close is close enough for accurate injector control, like I said above 0.005". I have a huge advantage when it comes to measuring stuff, I have access to laser measurement equipment! I strongly recommend using similar measuring equipment to design / verify the flywheel after it's modified!

    dave w

 

 

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