accel gen 7, whipple & tbi

[GXR11]

hey everyone, i hope i posted this in the right section, if not let me know and ill repost.

im putting together a chevy 4.3 v6 with a whipple and tbi. with the boost levels im looking to make (15-17lbs) i was told to get away from the factory ecm and use a stand alone managment system. i have access to a gen 7 computer, harness and software for $500. the whipple is intended to a factory tbi (2 bbl with 2 injectors) so i was planning on using a factory throttle body from a 454 with whatever lbs injectors my tuner recommends. my question is will/can this managment system work with a factory tbi unit? all the throttle bodies that i see aftermarket offer are 4 bbl units, which wont bolt up to the whipple so that route isnt going to work. does anyone have experiance with this gen 7 system and what is everyones thoughtrs on this? thanks in advance for any info ! Dan

[V3NOM GTO]

1) Get the EBL from Dynamic EFI. Bob knows his stuff and will help you tune it yourself. Nobody cares about your tune as much as you, that should be insentive enough to not let anyone else touch your stuff. the EBL is designed for use with TBI and can be converted to MPFI if you choose to go that route. Also has lean cruise features and is able to control a 2 or 3 bar Map sensor.

2) TBI - You need to know what setup your whipple is made for. If it's a 350 whipple (probably is) then you can use the 454 TBI but you'll have to bore out the plate on the whipple (TBI side & Intake Side) and the intake, or go to a different intake if they have one availiable. Look into the later TBI intakes, I dunno about the 4.3 but the 7.4 intakes changed to a better design in the later years (92+ I think).

3) Injectors, you probably will want to talk to bob about the injectors, I have no clue what the fuel demands on a blown 4.3 are.

Alot of people are gonna tell you not to put this much work into your 4.3. I say go for it, it's different and will probably make a little bit of power. While it's running you can build a 383 and then just bolt your whipple on it, make some tune changes and be good to go. Just my .02 btw.

I have whipplecharged, cammed, intake, head, ect, ect, ect 454 SS with EBL. It's all waiting to be installed right now (currently deployed) but after months of research this was the best option for me.

[GXR11]

well, let me start off by saying thanks for encouraging me to build this thing and not telling me id be better off building a 350 or something else.. i have three 350 blocks already, one in my camaro, one under the work bench and one in the process of going to 391 on a stand for when the one in the camaro retires itself, and theres also a fresh forged 383 LS1 somewhere in there on a stand getting its mock build right now. so to all those ppl who dont like seeing little motors get built, im fully aware that there is bigger ones out there, thats just not what im trying to do right now...

ill use all your hard work researching and check out that EBL setup, sounds bout right for my app. this is my first go at a full efi build and my first run at a boosted motor, so i have lots of questions and figuring out to do.

the whipple is intended for a 4.3 (pre-cpi motors), they had a kit back in the day and i saw it come up for sale and just had to snatch it up cause i never saw one before and figured i prob wouldnt again.

nobody really makes a decent intake for these.. except chevy, back in the late 80's to early 90's the busch series cars had to run a 4.3 so the general made some cool stuff. i found an old bow tie cross ram with a 4150 bolt pattern and was just going to make an adapter for the whipple base to the carb pad.

the throttle bores on the back of the whipple if i remember correctly (my b.a.c. wasnt 0.0 at the time) are 45 mm or so, i guess its the stock bore for a s-10s of that time. i was also under the impression that the tbi mounting bolt pattern was the same for all throttle bodies , regardless of what motor they were on. i know there are2 different base sizes, something about a larger air passage in the base but the same bolt pattern. i also found someone on ebay who sells modified factory units with up to 52mm bores.

the vortec heads im useing (casting 10235772) just arrived today and are going to my machine shop on thursday to have the intake bolt holes changed to mate up with the older style bolt pattern on the intake,(everything else that will need to be done will happen once i decide on a cam) so while there ill ask them about opening the bores in the whipple base plate and the inlet.

thanks for the insite on everything and let me know any other thoughts ya have on this please... Dan

crap, almost forgot THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE !!!!

[V3NOM GTO]

Dan,

That sounds like a really cool build, seems like it's gonna be one heck of a sleeper, especially with all the modified GM parts. Cool deal for sure. The TBI's all bolt up the same to my knowledge but the 454 has bigger bores to begin with. I read that the stock 350 TBI's flow around 450-550 cfm or something like that, the stock 7.4 TBI flows around 650sih. There's a guy on the SS forum that ports them to flow up to 920CFM, takes alot of work though. He charges around $350 + shipping both ways to do it.

I considered making an adapter like your talking about for the bottom of my whipple. I was going to use a low rise single plane intake (torker II or similar), I choose not to b/c I was scared it would change where the whipple bolted up relative to the pulley system. I thought I would have lots of belt problems and it would cause more trouble than it's worth. Might be wrong on that, but it's definitely something to consider when you choosing your intakes setup. For this reason I just went with the edelbrock TBI intake, which is actually the exact same as the later 454SS truck intake, but cast from aluminum and not iron.

With a little bit of port work those heads should flow nicely I'd think. There's a guy who specializes in porting GM cast heads, especially vortecs, but I can't remember the name of the site right now.

For the cam, I would call one of the major cam companies ( I called comp cams), and have them custom grind you a cam. It's not much more money at all and with an oddball setup it probably makes a pretty big difference. For me they cut me a cam that will work well with the blower, but is also still easily tuneable.

That's about all I can think to say about the engine. What tranny are you puttin behind it?

No problem on the service. I've been some nice places, and some not nice places, and seen some cool stuff I never would have seen. But this is my 3rd deployment in 2 years and my family is ready to have me home. I am coming home in April and I will be leaving the AF to look for a job in June. Scary thoughts for sure.

[GXR11]

wow, 920 cfm sounds wonderful !! lol, i need that dudes contact info.... (what ss forum is that?) i have considered the height difference with the intakes and pretty much decided to deal with it once i get to that part. worse case ill be making a new snout support bracket... shouldnt be 2 hard if a have a few beers to help me. the lil top part already has to be welded back together, came in with the edge where one of the bolts is broken off clean.

there isnt to much that can be done to those heads, apparently these are one of GM's nifty performance parts that they like to make without telling anyone then putting them in production vehicles, kinda like the gt40 heads ford put in the explorers. hot rod did an article on porting these things and lost more flow on the intake side then they gained and saw marginal inprovement on the exhaust.. and thats with larger valves and all... they can get upwards of 250cfm flowing on the intake side and i forget what they do on the exhaust side, downfall is they only good for .480 lift stock, spring pockets need to be cut down and widened to go over that. the cam i was looking at was .500/.510 lift and 215/220* at .050 and 114* lsa from comp but its a retro roller and the block im gonna use is a factory roller. you can use retro fit in a roller block but it can get hella-confusing to make it work, and im dealing with enough as is so i was just gonna call em and have them cut the same bump stick for a factory roller, but asking them thier opinion would be the smarter way to go...

i have heard of guys getting over 500hp (388rwhp was the last dyno run i heard about or read) outta these things with something like 12-13 lbs boost...soooo

im sick of blowing up trany-missions so its getting a tko-600 behind it... should be the last one i have to buy for this truck... hopefully.

now im just trying to find a crank that can survive 600hp (high enough that ill never break it for to much power)for everything else that rotates in using 350 forged 350 parts...

civilian life has to suck after all that (not counting the missed loved ones and friends) so god speed man, you've earned it!

[94_c/1500]

What did your heads come from? A '96 or newer engine? Nothing special, and are the exact head as a 350 just one less cylinder. As far as I'm aware, GM never produced some special rare Vortec head. The best ones are the '96 and newer heads. And they can benefit with porting and valve work. To keeps things simpler, using CPI heads would of been easier so you wouldn't have to worry about bolt holes or trying to get the ports to line up right with the intake. I'm a pretty big fan of the 262 engines, they're considered junk to most and are slower than the small blocks, there really is no good reason to mess with the 262 engines, but I do like them. If you look at my signature, the thread in it has alot of links to performance parts for our engines.

Oh, and for a tough crank using 350 rods you're gonna need an oddfire crank and unless you can find a new forged one you're looking at a billet piece. That's around $1000. If you afford that, might has well use a 3.75 inch stroke too. Actually there are also GM performance parts blocks capable of having 4 inch bores too.

[GXR11]

the heads arent some rare race part, im aware of this. they are from a 96-99 vortec motor. these years are the first real vortec's. i know they called some of the earlier ones vortecs but they dont have the chamber and runner design, factory screw in studs raised rails and such as the ones they started making in 96.

depending on which casting you go with some are just great flowers from the factory, some deff. need some porting but can breath and some really need work but dont have the meat for real numbers, while others just plain wheeze like a asthma patient breathing threw a coffee stirrer... to give you an idea, i have a set of 215 cc dart iron eagles with 2.055 intakes valves that flow 268cfm outta the box, decend numbers right? these vortec's capable of flowing upwards of 250cfm, while not a race flow number, damn good for any factory head, out flowing those old double hump heads after port work and 2.02 valves.

the reason for the bolt pattern needing to be changed is the older intakes used 6 thicker bolts going in at an angle while the vortecs use only 4 thinner bolts going in straight up. i like te vortec gasket design better but would rather have the strength and more even pressure from the extra bolts

as for the cranks you can "get away" most of the time with 350 rods on even fire cranks with the 30* offset... a lil touch up and bearing widths may need attention...but i know gm recommends the common pin crank for all out performance motors... you can get raw forged cranks from the general that can be machined to have a stroke from 3.250 to 3.750. and cut to a BB snout i believe for less then speed o motives stuff.

there is some company called rpm ( appearently there is a few with the same name, i called the one i found) that has nitrided cranks for around 650 or so i heard/read, but that was from a 3rd party and have yet to locate them on the web. the 1500 dollar speed o motive forged stroker crank only give an extra 10 inches... i can get **** with a large over bore if im not worried about wall thickness. and billet is out of the budget... my girl is prego and i need to acomplish all my hopes, dreams and goals before she multiplies in 7 months on what ever money comes in between now and then...

[GXR11]

well, im trying to post a pic... but im to much of a noob on here to be allowed to do it.... haha

[GXR11]

[IMG]http://s1157.photobucket.com/albums/p598/crossan1979/?action=view&current=crossram.jpg[/IMG

i tried...lol

[CKTA]

....with the boost levels im looking to make (15-17lbs)

What year/style Whipple do you have? If an older model, (Autorotor for instance) you may be asking for trouble.....I think 15 to 17 will be over spinning the compressor.

[JWolfe75]

i tried...lol

[GXR11]

jwolfe, thanks!!! what did i do wrong? lol

ckta, thats a good question, this being my first boosted build thers alot im not aware of, this being one of them. im not sure what model it is... how would i find out... i just took a bunch of pics of it for someone. nd in the process found some numbers stamped on the side towards the front... 31160 0242 ill also try posting pics again so you can take a look at it

[GXR11]

ok, ima try this again

[V3NOM GTO]

31160 is the modle #. I think it is a 1.16 L blower, but I'm not posative. I'd call whipple and tell them the part number. They should be able to tell you what the max sustained RPM is and we can figure up what your smallest pulley size will be. There's no way to really know how much boost that will make till you get it all assembled. Remember more boost doesn't always mean more power. When you put in better flowing heads, intake, and cam, you are gonna drop boost but gain power. Don't be disapointed if it doesnt hit the boost numbers you want.

Edit: Found this chart. I'm assuming yours is a model 3116 (31160), the 350 model is a 3133, and the 454 model is a 3150. I think I may have that wrong, I'll confirm.

Little hard to read, sorry about that.
Compressor Type Litre/sec m3/minute m3/hour g/second kg/hour Litre/sec m3/minute m3/hour g/second kg/hour
OA 0005 3,7/ 0,22/ 13,2/ 4,4/ 15,8/ 27,0/ 1,6/ 96,0/ 32,0/ 115,0
OA 1032 9,0/ 0,54/ 33,0/ 10,8/ 39,0/ 86,0/ 5,2/ 312,0/ 103,0/ 375,0
OA 1040 9,0/ 0,54/ 33,0/ 10,8/ 39,0/ 107,0/ 6,4/ 384,0/ 128,0/ 460,0
OA 1050 9,0/ 0,54/ 33,0/ 10,8/ 39,0/ 133,0/ 8,0/ 480,0/ 160,0/ 576,0
OA 2059 12,0/ 0,72/ 43,0/ 14,4/ 52,0/ 133,0/ 8,0/ 480,0/ 160,0/ 576,0
OA 2076 13,0/ 0,77/ 46,0/ 15,4/ 55,0/ 175,0/ 10,5/ 630,0/ 210,0/ 756,0
OA 2087 14,0/ 0,82/ 49,0/ 16,4/ 59,0/ 205,0/ 12,3/ 737,0/ 245,0/ 884,0
OA 3116 17,0/ 1,04/ 62,0/ 20,6/ 75,0/ 226,0/ 13,6/ 816,0/ 272,0/ 979,0
OA 3133 19,0/ 1,14/ 68,5/ 23,0/ 82,0/ 265,0/ 15,6/ 954,0/ 318,0/ 1145,0
OA 3150 22,0/ 1,32/ 79,0/ 26,4/ 95,0/ 293,0/ 17,6/ 1053,0/ 351,0/ 1264,0

[CKTA]

ok, ima try this again

That looks like the old first (the 1st gen old ones have the grease fittings for the bearings) gen 1.6L Autorotor. I would ask Whipple, but if I had to guess, I would say 12PSI is max you should expect out of that.

[CKTA]

Ohh, and that "looks" to be a big 6PSI pulley on there now.

[GXR11]

i got all the paperwork for it when it arrived.. it did say 6-8 lbs... so i guess a call to whipple is gonna happen here soon. i needed to do that anyway to order some things or at least figure out what they used so i can replace some stuff like the idler's (bearings in them are shot) and the seal from the charger to the base. im cool with it if it wont go to 15-17 lbs. with the intake and heads i was expecting the pressure to drop from what it would have been on a stock motor (which its designed for). im wanting to spin the motor upwards of 6k so hopefully they tell me that itll make something upwards of what i want and live a long happy life.. im still needing crank options, i stopped by my local chevy pro shop and looks like they might have discontinued the raw forging crank (pn 14044838) i was somewhat interested in(stop in to check pricing)


any knowledge if i can get away with not running the coolant threw the back on this thing...? just seems counter productive to me, or is it needed to keep the bearings back there from over heating...? im assuming the oil in the front is just for the gears not the bearings. and the coolant was for the bearings in the back...

[CKTA]

i got all the paperwork for it when it arrived.. it did say 6-8 lbs... so i guess a call to whipple is gonna happen here soon. i needed to do that anyway to order some things or at least figure out what they used so i can replace some stuff like the idler's (bearings in them are shot) and the seal from the charger to the base. im cool with it if it wont go to 15-17 lbs. with the intake and heads i was expecting the pressure to drop from what it would have been on a stock motor (which its designed for). im wanting to spin the motor upwards of 6k so hopefully they tell me that itll make something upwards of what i want and live a long happy life.. im still needing crank options, i stopped by my local chevy pro shop and looks like they might have discontinued the raw forging crank (pn 14044838) i was somewhat interested in(stop in to check pricing)


any knowledge if i can get away with not running the coolant threw the back on this thing...? just seems counter productive to me, or is it needed to keep the bearings back there from over heating...? im assuming the oil in the front is just for the gears not the bearings. and the coolant was for the bearings in the back...

1. Don't expect to get much of anything in parts from Whipple for the Autorotors anymore. Take the bearings to a local Grainger or bearing supply store. They are common sized bearings that simply press in and out.

The "seal" you are refering to is simply a length of O-ring material (sorry don't know the dia.) When you install it, use whitle lithium grease and overlap the cut ends by a inch.

2. I would run the coolant, it's for cooling in the summer and so it doesn't freeze up in the winter. You wouldn't think that would be the case, but I was told that from Whipple themselves back in the day.

[JWolfe75]

2. I would run the coolant, it's for cooling in the summer and so it doesn't freeze up in the winter. You wouldn't think that would be the case, but I was told that from Whipple themselves back in the day.

Yeah, back in the day, like the last time you drove yours

[V3NOM GTO]

Call whipple support and ask to speak to Dennis, if anyone can get you what you're lookin for its him.