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fuel injection Spider problem??

This is a discussion on fuel injection Spider problem?? within the Technical / Maintenance forums, part of the General Discussion category; i have a 96 K1500 350/5spd nv3500 and yesterday my truck ran top notch today i start it and it ...

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    fuel injection Spider problem??


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    i have a 96 K1500 350/5spd nv3500 and yesterday my truck ran top notch today i start it and it has a rough idle. i am aware that it is a common problem for the injectors to fail. i am also living in CA. i need some help to see if this is my problem or if it is the fuel pressure regulator or what. the cap/rotor/plugs are fine fuel filter could be changed... please help
    thanks
    Last edited by xbl003x; 01-10-2007 at 04:51 PM.

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    Supporting Member Chevyboy96's Avatar
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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    First change the fuel filter, run some quality cleaner through the system, and if it continues start checking your pressures etc.
    How do you know the electrical stuff is fine? did you check it or just think it is fine?
    '96 K1500 Ext. Cab, 5.7 w/Upgraded Spider Injectors, S&B CAI, 6" RCD, Flipped BJ's, 35" BFG M/T's On Ultra Xtreme's, Yukon 4.56's & True-Trac, Dual Flow 40's, Wet Okoles, Line-Xhttp://www.cardomain.com/ride/1281046/1 Sig By alphaecho4386

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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Any codes yet? If not, give it time....
    -D


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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    If it has a rough idle, the SES light should be on. I would pull the cap off and check for corrosion. Make sure nothing has come unplugged under the hood. The injector issue is possible, but I would check some basic stuff first..
    08 HHR LS - 2.2 | 5 speed | 30 MPG

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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Gm was changing the injector spiders to the enwer updated ones under warranty if the vehicle is used in California.

    teh Cali gas doesnt react well with teh older spider units.

    post #9 of this thread shows the new and old spiders on top of 1 another.
    http://www.performancetrucks.net/for...d.php?t=356743

    Here is some part numbers and prices
    http://www.pacific-audio.com/perform...es/231640.html

    peace
    pauly
    97 GMC 2wd RCSB 5.7, s10 2700 footstall, Hooker 24621hkr LT's , 2.5" cats dual 4"pipes exit B4 pass. side tire, custom driveshaft 3.42 G80 FIPK MAF descreen GM/Mercruiser Marine intake manifold 29lb LS2(EV6) injectors Ed Wright PCM(best mod), LT4 KM 14.8@94mph 2.007 4000lbs 122mph

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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    thanks guys, today i will pull some plug check cap and rotor. the thing i dont get is that it happened overnight.
    thanks again

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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Mine did the same thing once. Think I had a couple plugged injectors because it wouldn't run at all. Finally cleared some and it would run but one of the injectors was dead. I pulled off the spider connector and put voltage to the injectors and one of them didn't click. I was also getting a cylinder specific misfire code. It's something to try.

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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly
    Gm was changing the injector spiders to the enwer updated ones under warranty if the vehicle is used in California.

    teh Cali gas doesnt react well with teh older spider units.
    Does anyone here have access to the TSB and recall info that would be willing to look up the info on this? I'd much appreciate it, because if I decide to hit up the General to replace mine, I'd like to be armed with this info if they happen to say they don't know anything about it, or other rubbish.

    Also, do you know if you have to have a specific SES code or problem with the way the engine runs to qualify for the warranty replacement? Mine has always had an inconsistently rough (meaning sometimes it's smooth as silk, and sometimes it is rough) idle, but no other apparent problems, despite logging 124k miles on it, almost exclusively in CA.

    thanks!
    _dennis
    '97 hoe, 6/7 static drop, Hotchkis F&R sways, Budnik Pentacles, K&N FIPK, JBA headers, Flowmaster, raised X-pipe, Magnaflow cats, B&M Shift+, Magnecor wires, 35w 4500k DDM HID lights & more...original owner


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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Overkill
    Does anyone here have access to the TSB and recall info that would be willing to look up the info on this? I'd much appreciate it, because if I decide to hit up the General to replace mine, I'd like to be armed with this info if they happen to say they don't know anything about it, or other rubbish.

    Also, do you know if you have to have a specific SES code or problem with the way the engine runs to qualify for the warranty replacement? Mine has always had an inconsistently rough (meaning sometimes it's smooth as silk, and sometimes it is rough) idle, but no other apparent problems, despite logging 124k miles on it, almost exclusively in CA.

    thanks!
    _dennis
    Campaign - Fuel Injector Sticking Closed

    File In Section: 06-Engine Emissions

    Bulletin No.: 99066F

    Date: March, 2003

    SPECIAL POLICY
    SUBJECT:
    99066F - SPECIAL POLICY ADJUSTMENT - SEQUENTIAL CENTRAL PORT
    FUEL INJECTION (SCPI) FAILURES IN CALIFORNIA ONLY (YF5
    EMISSION EQUIPPED)

    MODELS:
    CERTAIN 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 S/T, M/L, C/K, G,
    P, W4/NPR TRUCKS AND 2003 NPR TRUCKS EQUIPPED WITH 4.3L
    (RPO L35 - VIN CODE W OR RPO LF6 - VIN CODE X), 5.0L (RPO L30
    - VIN CODE M) OR 5.7L (RPO L31 - VIN CODE R) ENGINE AND
    CALIFORNIA EMISSION EQUIPPED (RPO YF5)

    This bulletin is being revised to add the 2002 and 2003 model years to the SCPI Special Policy on certain S/T, M/L, C/K, G, P and W4/NPR truck models. Please discard Special Policy Bulletin Number 99066E, dated February, 2003.

    CONDITION

    Some customers of 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 model year S/T, M/L, C/K, G, P, W4/NPR trucks and 2003 NPR trucks, that are registered in California, equipped with 4.3L (RPO L35 and VIN Code W, or RPO LF6 and VIN Code X), 5.0L (RPO L30 and VIN Code M) or 5.7L (RPO L31 and VIN Code R) engine, and California emissions (RPO YF5), may experience a "Service Engine Soon" light, misfire, rough idle or hard start due to a deposit build-up on the Sequential Central Port Fuel Injector (SCPI) poppet valve(s). The deposit build-up may cause injector poppets to stick closed. Certain fuels have been found to interact with the SCPI system to cause the deposits.

    SPECIAL POLICY ADJUSTMENT

    This special policy covers the SCPI failure condition described above for a period of ten (10) years or 200,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the date the vehicle was originally placed in service, regardless of ownership.

    The repairs will be made at no charge to the owner. This special policy applies ONLY to repairs requiring SCPI system servicing, injector cleaning and/or MFI assembly replacement of the SCPI system. The customer should not be charged for performing a system check when it is determined that the SCPI system is not the cause of a customer complaint (labor operation T5532 is provided to submit claims for such system checks). Any additional necessary diagnosis and repairs that are not related to the SCPI condition are not covered by this special policy. The customer should be informed that any further service that is not covered by new vehicle warranty will not be covered by this policy.

    VEHICLES INVOLVED

    Involved are certain 1996,1997,1998,1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 S/T, M/L, C/K, G, P, W4/NPR and 2003 NPR model vehicles, registered in California, equipped with 4.3L (RPO L35 - VIN Code W, or RPO LF6 - VIN Code X), 5.0L (RPO L30 - VIN Code M) or 5.7L (RPO L31 - VIN Code R) engine; and California emissions (RPO YF5). This Special Policy covers all vehicles within these model years, with these engine and emissions RPO's.
    08 HHR LS - 2.2 | 5 speed | 30 MPG

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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by 98GreenMachine
    This special policy covers the SCPI failure condition described above for a period of ten (10) years or 200,000 miles, whichever occurs first, from the date the vehicle was originally placed in service, regardless of ownership.
    You rock--thanks!

    I gotta get my butt moving, though, because I bought the hoe in the summer of 1997!

    _dennis
    '97 hoe, 6/7 static drop, Hotchkis F&R sways, Budnik Pentacles, K&N FIPK, JBA headers, Flowmaster, raised X-pipe, Magnaflow cats, B&M Shift+, Magnecor wires, 35w 4500k DDM HID lights & more...original owner


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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Overkill
    You rock--thanks!

    I gotta get my butt moving, though, because I bought the hoe in the summer of 1997!

    _dennis
    You bought it new in 97 I assume?
    08 HHR LS - 2.2 | 5 speed | 30 MPG

    98 K1500 Z71 - 204k | L31 | 60E | 3.73's | 3" BL | 33x12.5x15 Dick Cepek F-C II's | Dynomax Ultra Flo X DI/DO | 14 MPG

    84 S15 Jimmy 2dr 4x4 - engine/tranny all rebuilt

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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by 98GreenMachine
    You bought it new in 97 I assume?
    Yep. Here I am picking it up at the dealership (trying to put the key on my keyring and realizing it ain't gonna happen with the plastic moulding on it)


    _dennis
    '97 hoe, 6/7 static drop, Hotchkis F&R sways, Budnik Pentacles, K&N FIPK, JBA headers, Flowmaster, raised X-pipe, Magnaflow cats, B&M Shift+, Magnecor wires, 35w 4500k DDM HID lights & more...original owner


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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Overkill
    You rock--thanks!

    I gotta get my butt moving, though, because I bought the hoe in the summer of 1997!

    _dennis
    Well, I left the hoe at the stealership all day today, only to have them tell me (as I thought they probably would) that they could not reproduce the problems (rough idle, hard start) to a satisfactory level, and could find no DTCs stored to justify the warranty service to The General.

    That's just lame. They could make some money, granted a reduced rate, by just showing me a little love and saying, yeah, the idle is rough and the thing doesn't always start as quickly as it should. But no. Maybe they think I'm going to come back and pay them out of pocket at normal shop rate to do this service later. Tough luck--they aren't going to make a dime on it now, because I'll just do it myself. I would have much rather spent their dime on it, though

    Oh well, they did say that my fuel pump is on the outs, so I managed to get that piece of info for free.

    So what's the cheapest and most reliable source to buy the new spider and related stuff? Dal? GMpartsdirect? Other?

    thanks,
    _dennis
    '97 hoe, 6/7 static drop, Hotchkis F&R sways, Budnik Pentacles, K&N FIPK, JBA headers, Flowmaster, raised X-pipe, Magnaflow cats, B&M Shift+, Magnecor wires, 35w 4500k DDM HID lights & more...original owner


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    Supporting Member Chevyboy96's Avatar
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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Gmpartsdirect, or I got mine off Ebay for a good price.
    Last edited by Chevyboy96; 05-01-2007 at 10:53 PM.
    '96 K1500 Ext. Cab, 5.7 w/Upgraded Spider Injectors, S&B CAI, 6" RCD, Flipped BJ's, 35" BFG M/T's On Ultra Xtreme's, Yukon 4.56's & True-Trac, Dual Flow 40's, Wet Okoles, Line-Xhttp://www.cardomain.com/ride/1281046/1 Sig By alphaecho4386

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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevyboy96
    Gmpartsdirect, or I got mine off Ebay for a good price.
    Ebay? Was it a dealer? Seems like an odd thing for an individual to be selling.

    thanks,
    _d
    '97 hoe, 6/7 static drop, Hotchkis F&R sways, Budnik Pentacles, K&N FIPK, JBA headers, Flowmaster, raised X-pipe, Magnaflow cats, B&M Shift+, Magnecor wires, 35w 4500k DDM HID lights & more...original owner


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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Overkill
    Well, I left the hoe at the stealership all day today, only to have them tell me (as I thought they probably would) that they could not reproduce the problems (rough idle, hard start) to a satisfactory level, and could find no DTCs stored to justify the warranty service to The General.

    That's just lame. They could make some money, granted a reduced rate, by just showing me a little love and saying, yeah, the idle is rough and the thing doesn't always start as quickly as it should. But no. Maybe they think I'm going to come back and pay them out of pocket at normal shop rate to do this service later. Tough luck--they aren't going to make a dime on it now, because I'll just do it myself. I would have much rather spent their dime on it, though

    Oh well, they did say that my fuel pump is on the outs, so I managed to get that piece of info for free.

    So what's the cheapest and most reliable source to buy the new spider and related stuff? Dal? GMpartsdirect? Other?

    thanks,
    _dennis
    that sucks man, sorry for the bad luck. I bought my assembly off gmpartsdirect.com, but as Chevyboy96 said, it may be cheaper off of Ebay.

    Here are the part numbers if you need them:

    93441235 Assy, V8 Fuel Injector
    93442096 Bracket, V8
    17113206 Kit, V8 Seal

    BTW- You don't really need the new bracket for this. The your old bracket is the same as the new one.
    08 HHR LS - 2.2 | 5 speed | 30 MPG

    98 K1500 Z71 - 204k | L31 | 60E | 3.73's | 3" BL | 33x12.5x15 Dick Cepek F-C II's | Dynomax Ultra Flo X DI/DO | 14 MPG

    84 S15 Jimmy 2dr 4x4 - engine/tranny all rebuilt

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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by 98GreenMachine
    that sucks man, sorry for the bad luck. I bought my assembly off gmpartsdirect.com, but as Chevyboy96 said, it may be cheaper off of Ebay.

    Here are the part numbers if you need them:

    93441235 Assy, V8 Fuel Injector
    93442096 Bracket, V8
    17113206 Kit, V8 Seal

    BTW- You don't really need the new bracket for this. The your old bracket is the same as the new one.
    Thanks. 3 more (sorta) quick questions:

    1) I just had the upper seal replaced when they replaced the lower intake gasket a month or two ago. Assuming they didn't use any kind of sealant on the upper, will I be able to re-use it?

    2) Someone (maybe you) listed a couple part #s for o-rings for fuel lines, something about the firewall (my notes are sketchy). The #s are 22514722 and 22516256. Are these wise to replace while the upper intake is apart? Sounds like something you just slide over the fuel lines all the way back to the firewall, but I haven't looked in there.

    3) I think someone mentioned replacing a fuel pressure regulator that is also located in the upper manifold. Is that the case for a '97 5.7? The dealer did say that they found an issue with fuel pressure in a pressure test, that it was leaking back into the tank and that I am heading toward a new fuel pump. It sounds like it might be a good idea to replace the pressure regulator, if I'm going to replace the both the spider and fuel pump at some point.

    thanks--I wish the dealerships were as helpful as you guys

    _dennis
    '97 hoe, 6/7 static drop, Hotchkis F&R sways, Budnik Pentacles, K&N FIPK, JBA headers, Flowmaster, raised X-pipe, Magnaflow cats, B&M Shift+, Magnecor wires, 35w 4500k DDM HID lights & more...original owner


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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Overkill
    Thanks. 3 more (sorta) quick questions:

    1) I just had the upper seal replaced when they replaced the lower intake gasket a month or two ago. Assuming they didn't use any kind of sealant on the upper, will I be able to re-use it?

    2) Someone (maybe you) listed a couple part #s for o-rings for fuel lines, something about the firewall (my notes are sketchy). The #s are 22514722 and 22516256. Are these wise to replace while the upper intake is apart? Sounds like something you just slide over the fuel lines all the way back to the firewall, but I haven't looked in there.

    3) I think someone mentioned replacing a fuel pressure regulator that is also located in the upper manifold. Is that the case for a '97 5.7? The dealer did say that they found an issue with fuel pressure in a pressure test, that it was leaking back into the tank and that I am heading toward a new fuel pump. It sounds like it might be a good idea to replace the pressure regulator, if I'm going to replace the both the spider and fuel pump at some point.

    thanks--I wish the dealerships were as helpful as you guys

    _dennis
    1. The seal kit I listed comes with 3 gaskets: one for between the throttle body and the plastic plenum(blue gasket, round on one end), one for around the injector assembly and the plastic plenum(blue oval gasket), and one for between the plastic upper intake and the aluminum lower intake(orange gasket).

    The funny thing is, the new injector assembly comes with the gasket around it, the second one I mentioned above.

    So if your pull the upper intake apart and leave the throttle body attached, and if the third gasket I listed above is still in good shape, you actually don't need to purchase the gasket set at all. In a nutshell anyways. Here is a pic of all the stuff im talking about:



    2. not sure which O rings these are..there are o rings that go onto the fuel line when inserted into the injector assembly..IIRC the new injector assembly already included these. Are these the ones your thinking of maybe?

    3. The fuel pressure regulator is attached to the injector assembly. Its the gold thing on the side in my second pic above. The new injector assembly has a new regulator on it so your already set.
    Last edited by 98GreenMachine; 05-02-2007 at 08:32 AM.
    08 HHR LS - 2.2 | 5 speed | 30 MPG

    98 K1500 Z71 - 204k | L31 | 60E | 3.73's | 3" BL | 33x12.5x15 Dick Cepek F-C II's | Dynomax Ultra Flo X DI/DO | 14 MPG

    84 S15 Jimmy 2dr 4x4 - engine/tranny all rebuilt

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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by 98GreenMachine
    1. The seal kit I listed comes with 3 gaskets: one for between the throttle body and the plastic plenum(blue gasket, round on one end), one for around the injector assembly and the plastic plenum(blue oval gasket), and one for between the plastic upper intake and the aluminum lower intake(orange gasket).

    The funny thing is, the new injector assembly comes with the gasket around it, the second one I mentioned above.

    So if your pull the upper intake apart and leave the throttle body attached,
    Can the spider be replaced if the throttle body is left attached to the plenum? Is that one gasket (between the throttle body and plastic plenum) at all critical? I don't want to waste money on 2 gaskets I don't need just to buy the 3rd, but if that one is a good idea to replace after 125k miles as just normal maintenance, I might as well bite the bullet and replace it. It'd be nice if GM sold the gaskets separately, but I guess most people don't piece-meal their repairs like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by 98GreenMachine
    2. not sure which O rings these are..there are o rings that go onto the fuel line when inserted into the injector assembly..IIRC the new injector assembly already included these. Are these the ones your thinking of maybe?
    Whoever it was mentioned the firewall. Without having looked in there, I guess there are o-rings where the fuel lines pass through the firewall. I assume those lines are solid, so I guess unless those o-rings look really bad off, they're probably ok to leave. I'll have to take a look today to see if I can spot them.


    Quote Originally Posted by 98GreenMachine
    3. The fuel pressure regulator is attached to the injector assembly. Its the gold thing on the side in my second pic above. The new injector assembly has a new regulator on it so your already set.
    Sweet

    thanks!
    _dennis
    '97 hoe, 6/7 static drop, Hotchkis F&R sways, Budnik Pentacles, K&N FIPK, JBA headers, Flowmaster, raised X-pipe, Magnaflow cats, B&M Shift+, Magnecor wires, 35w 4500k DDM HID lights & more...original owner


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    Re: fuel injection Spider problem??

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Overkill
    Can the spider be replaced if the throttle body is left attached to the plenum?
    Yes you can leave the throttle body attached, so no you wouldnt have to replace the gasket.

    Whoever it was mentioned the firewall. Without having looked in there, I guess there are o-rings where the fuel lines pass through the firewall. I assume those lines are solid, so I guess unless those o-rings look really bad off, they're probably ok to leave. I'll have to take a look today to see if I can spot them.
    Thats where I'm confused, the fuel lines don't pass through the firewall. The lines run up from the frame rail using solid tube and crimped lines. The only spot they finally use a o-ring is where they enter the injector assembly on top like I mentioned.
    08 HHR LS - 2.2 | 5 speed | 30 MPG

    98 K1500 Z71 - 204k | L31 | 60E | 3.73's | 3" BL | 33x12.5x15 Dick Cepek F-C II's | Dynomax Ultra Flo X DI/DO | 14 MPG

    84 S15 Jimmy 2dr 4x4 - engine/tranny all rebuilt

 

 
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