oldred95
07-01-2007, 07:18 PM
I'm going to use a CTS like the one that goes in the intake that the computer uses for the CTS reading for an IAT sensor. Anyway long question short what pin do I use on the PCM to hook the sensor up?
View Full Version : installing an IAT sensor
HaulnA$$
07-02-2007, 02:52 AM
I'm going to use a CTS like the one that goes in the intake that the computer uses for the CTS reading for an IAT sensor. Anyway long question short what pin do I use on the PCM to hook the sensor up?That would be pin B9 on your '7427 PCM. HTH
oldred95
07-02-2007, 02:58 AM
That would be pin B9 on your '7427 PCM. HTH
Is there any certain requirement for the wire? Certain gauge or anything?
Is there any certain requirement for the wire? Certain gauge or anything?
HaulnA$$
07-02-2007, 03:07 AM
Is there any certain requirement for the wire? Certain gauge or anything?18 ga. wire is plenty big enough and the insulation should be able to withstand the temperatures found in an engine compartment (300 *F or better). HTH
pfk
07-02-2007, 03:49 AM
Let me know how it works out, ever since your thread on thermostats I have been thinking about installing one as well and wondering where to go with it. I should have a few IAT sensors kicking around here somewhere.
Where do you plan on installing the sensor itself? before or after the tb? Most stock locations are in the air tube in between the air filter and tb, but I think I have seen some directly in the intake itself.
Where do you plan on installing the sensor itself? before or after the tb? Most stock locations are in the air tube in between the air filter and tb, but I think I have seen some directly in the intake itself.
oldred95
07-02-2007, 10:38 AM
Its going in the number 8 intake runner. On a wet intake setup I don't think it would do any good to put the IAT in before the TBI.
91chevZ71
07-02-2007, 04:02 PM
what part number are you using for the IAT sensor? What about heat soak from the manifold?
oldred95
07-02-2007, 04:39 PM
Hell if I know. Its just the one that you would normally put in the intake manifold to tell the PCM what the coolant temp is. Fast 305 is the one that told me about it.
pfk
07-02-2007, 05:14 PM
what part number are you using for the IAT sensor? What about heat soak from the manifold?
In theory the air that would be passing over the sensor would cool the tip to the temp of the air, not the manifold itself.
I'm not sure how a coolant temp sensor would react with it since they are solid at the tip as compared to an IAT sensor which has provisions for air flow. (see pic below)I'll try to come up with a part number for a threaded IAT that could be usuable.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z60/pfk_ca/AX31iatsensor.jpg
In theory the air that would be passing over the sensor would cool the tip to the temp of the air, not the manifold itself.
I'm not sure how a coolant temp sensor would react with it since they are solid at the tip as compared to an IAT sensor which has provisions for air flow. (see pic below)I'll try to come up with a part number for a threaded IAT that could be usuable.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z60/pfk_ca/AX31iatsensor.jpg
pfk
07-02-2007, 05:20 PM
well that was easy :D
blue streak part #AX1
from a 1995 k1500 pickup with a 6.5td
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z60/pfk_ca/AX1iatsensor.jpg
As you can see, the sensor itself is suspended and would not affected by the temperature of the manifold itself.
blue streak part #AX1
from a 1995 k1500 pickup with a 6.5td
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z60/pfk_ca/AX1iatsensor.jpg
As you can see, the sensor itself is suspended and would not affected by the temperature of the manifold itself.
91chevZ71
07-02-2007, 08:28 PM
yep. I have an IAT hooked into my air filter assy right now, maybe I should move it to the manifold. I have the "birdcage" style ac delco part that resembles the part in the above post...
The guard around the element is plastic- probably not fuel resistant.
Maybe I'll get that one and try it out Thanks pfk
does anybody how much IAT/MAT values affect the fueling parameters? like 10%, 20%, etc
IOW, how much can the IAT/MAT change the final fuel calculation?
The guard around the element is plastic- probably not fuel resistant.
Maybe I'll get that one and try it out Thanks pfk
does anybody how much IAT/MAT values affect the fueling parameters? like 10%, 20%, etc
IOW, how much can the IAT/MAT change the final fuel calculation?
oldred95
07-02-2007, 11:15 PM
I'll have to talk to Fast 305 about this. My only worry was the sensor being splashed with gas all the time.
HaulnA$$
07-03-2007, 01:59 AM
I'll have to talk to Fast 305 about this. My only worry was the sensor being splashed with gas all the time.That is not an issue. The fuel won't hurt it.
There is a difference between a MAT (Manifold Air Temp) sensor and an IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor. A TBI is better suited to a MAT sensor since the wall wetting and suspended fuel tend to cool the charge, a MAT sensor can detect this where an IAT cannot. A MAT sensor will react slower but it works better on TBI. IAT sensor is better on port injection. JMHO. HTH
There is a difference between a MAT (Manifold Air Temp) sensor and an IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor. A TBI is better suited to a MAT sensor since the wall wetting and suspended fuel tend to cool the charge, a MAT sensor can detect this where an IAT cannot. A MAT sensor will react slower but it works better on TBI. IAT sensor is better on port injection. JMHO. HTH
oldred95
07-03-2007, 02:00 AM
That is not an issue. The fuel won't hurt it.
There is a difference between a MAT (Manifold Air Temp) sensor and an IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor. A TBI is better suited to a MAT sensor since the wall wetting and suspended fuel tend to cool the charge, a MAT sensor can detect this where an IAT cannot. A MAT sensor will react slower but it works better on TBI. IAT sensor is better on port injection. JMHO. HTH
So would the above posted air charge temperature sensor work better then a CTS for a MAT sensor?
There is a difference between a MAT (Manifold Air Temp) sensor and an IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor. A TBI is better suited to a MAT sensor since the wall wetting and suspended fuel tend to cool the charge, a MAT sensor can detect this where an IAT cannot. A MAT sensor will react slower but it works better on TBI. IAT sensor is better on port injection. JMHO. HTH
So would the above posted air charge temperature sensor work better then a CTS for a MAT sensor?
HaulnA$$
07-03-2007, 02:09 AM
So would the above posted air charge temperature sensor work better then a CTS for a MAT sensor?No, the "basket" type sensors are IAT sensors only. Use the CTS style in the manifold. You can run one of the basket type sensors along with the MAT for datalogging if you want, but if you only run one, run a CTS style MAT sensor in the manifold. HTH
oldred95
07-03-2007, 02:15 AM
No, the "basket" type sensors are IAT sensors only. Use the CTS style in the manifold. You can run one of the basket type sensors along with the MAT for datalogging if you want, but if you only run one, run a CTS style MAT sensor in the manifold. HTH
Would there be any advantage to running both sensors other then impressing Chris?
Would there be any advantage to running both sensors other then impressing Chris?
HaulnA$$
07-03-2007, 02:27 AM
Would there be any advantage to running both sensors other then impressing Chris?Sure. The more data you have, the better you can dial in the tune. If you put an IAT way upstream in the intake tract, like just behind the filter in a CAI, you can see how much effect manifold heatsoak, engine temp (CTS), Intake air temp, and charge cooling have on the manifold temp in the runner. Knowing that you can populate the MAT tables with confidence. JMHO
The only thing that might impress chris is if you did it to a G20 van. LOL
The only thing that might impress chris is if you did it to a G20 van. LOL
oldred95
07-03-2007, 02:34 AM
The only thing that might impress chris is if you did it to a G20 van. LOL
:LOL:
Yea nothing gets his rocks off quite like talking about a G20 van.
:LOL:
Yea nothing gets his rocks off quite like talking about a G20 van.
pfk
07-03-2007, 04:43 AM
No, the "basket" type sensors are IAT sensors only. Use the CTS style in the manifold. You can run one of the basket type sensors along with the MAT for datalogging if you want, but if you only run one, run a CTS style MAT sensor in the manifold. HTH
When you say "CTS style", do you mean an actual coolant temp sensor? or a MAT sensor from a different vehicle? (if you know of a vehicle with a usuable sensor, fill me in)
When you say "CTS style", do you mean an actual coolant temp sensor? or a MAT sensor from a different vehicle? (if you know of a vehicle with a usuable sensor, fill me in)
HaulnA$$
07-03-2007, 05:43 AM
When you say "CTS style", do you mean an actual coolant temp sensor? or a MAT sensor from a different vehicle? (if you know of a vehicle with a usuable sensor, fill me in)The later ('90-'92) TPI Camaros had a MAT sensor in the plenum that was the exact same sensor as the CTS. They can actually be interchanged with each other and work fine. HTH
oldred95
07-03-2007, 10:46 AM
Again we are talking about the two wire CTS in the intake manifold, not the one wire CTS in the drivers side head. This plays hell with the idiots behind the counter at most parts stores.
HaulnA$$
07-03-2007, 02:06 PM
Again we are talking about the two wire CTS in the intake manifold, not the one wire CTS in the drivers side head. This plays hell with the idiots behind the counter at most parts stores.Yes. Just ask for a MAT sensor for a '92 Camaro with an L98 TPI. That should eliminate the dunce factor. HTH
pfk
07-03-2007, 03:51 PM
I just finished looking it up here,the sensor is in fact identical to the cts (not that I ever doubted you HaulnA$$ :D )
Blue streak part# would be a tx3 , acdelco #213-928.
Blue streak part# would be a tx3 , acdelco #213-928.
91chevZ71
07-03-2007, 05:35 PM
sweet. All I need now is Rbob over at thirdgen.org to write some MAT code into the EBL
HaulnA$$
07-03-2007, 08:52 PM
sweet. All I need now is Rbob over at thirdgen.org to write some MAT code into the EBLEBL has MAT/IAT functionality already in it. HTH
91chevZ71
07-03-2007, 09:12 PM
I knew about the IAT, just wondering if there is any difference in code between IAT and MAT.
-I wrote Rbob about it and he said same stuff, just have to adjust the CTS/IAT percentages.
-I wrote Rbob about it and he said same stuff, just have to adjust the CTS/IAT percentages.
dhall
07-03-2007, 09:17 PM
What percentages did BobR suggest?
91chevZ71
07-03-2007, 09:26 PM
From Rbob, emailed to me a few hours ago. love the customer service with the EBL
"For the MAT and IAT, there isn't anything in the code to differentiate
between them. Just the blend table to blend it with the CTS: IAT/CTS -
Blend Filter
Some folks have been successful with an IAT in the manifold with TBI.
This is one of those things that need to be tried out. I tried it
while using the same blend values as for an true IAT. That didn't work
too well. I have a vacuum tap for the VRFPR in that manifold port, so
I can't easily try it again.
I'm thinking that with less of a blend range, more toward the CTS
side, may work better."
"For the MAT and IAT, there isn't anything in the code to differentiate
between them. Just the blend table to blend it with the CTS: IAT/CTS -
Blend Filter
Some folks have been successful with an IAT in the manifold with TBI.
This is one of those things that need to be tried out. I tried it
while using the same blend values as for an true IAT. That didn't work
too well. I have a vacuum tap for the VRFPR in that manifold port, so
I can't easily try it again.
I'm thinking that with less of a blend range, more toward the CTS
side, may work better."
dhall
07-03-2007, 09:28 PM
Thanks for the info.
oldred95
07-04-2007, 03:21 PM
Is there a different pin in the PCM to use for a MAT sensor vs the IAT sensor?
Fast305
07-04-2007, 03:40 PM
From Rbob, emailed to me a few hours ago. love the customer service with the EBL
"For the MAT and IAT, there isn't anything in the code to differentiate
between them. Just the blend table to blend it with the CTS: IAT/CTS -
Blend Filter
Some folks have been successful with an IAT in the manifold with TBI.
This is one of those things that need to be tried out. I tried it
while using the same blend values as for an true IAT. That didn't work
too well. I have a vacuum tap for the VRFPR in that manifold port, so
I can't easily try it again.
I'm thinking that with less of a blend range, more toward the CTS
side, may work better."
Here is what worked well for me. I run the bird-cage style sensor in the intake manifold vacuum fitting on my TBI 350. It has an almost instant response and seems to represent the conditions in the manifold the best. The cage style is not picking up the head of the manifold itself, but rather the temperature of the incoming air/fuel mixture.
As far as the amount of blend, the IAT controls the fueling 100%, with no reliance on the CTS. The CTS is still used for startup fuel, AE compensation, etc, but the IAT is in control 100% for other things.
I dunno exactly how RBob's EBL IAT/CTS code works, but on the TBI PCM all it does is change the values calculated from the Inverse Air Density @ Sea Level vs. Blended intake temp value, which then indirectly changes the fuel delivery due to changes in density.
THe fueling seems to stay VERY accurate with this arrangement, so much so that with the MAF it is scary. It stays between 127-129 on both the Integrator and BLM. Air temperature and weather do not affect the way it runs. Humidity does not effect the fuel trims. Keep in mind this is after tweaking the MAF tables, VE tables, AE and DE with a wideband though.
FWIW, my MAF is a 5-pin design with an integrated IAT. I have seen variations of up to 60* in the temperature of the air flowing into the MAF vs. the intake charge temperature in a TBI manifold.
"For the MAT and IAT, there isn't anything in the code to differentiate
between them. Just the blend table to blend it with the CTS: IAT/CTS -
Blend Filter
Some folks have been successful with an IAT in the manifold with TBI.
This is one of those things that need to be tried out. I tried it
while using the same blend values as for an true IAT. That didn't work
too well. I have a vacuum tap for the VRFPR in that manifold port, so
I can't easily try it again.
I'm thinking that with less of a blend range, more toward the CTS
side, may work better."
Here is what worked well for me. I run the bird-cage style sensor in the intake manifold vacuum fitting on my TBI 350. It has an almost instant response and seems to represent the conditions in the manifold the best. The cage style is not picking up the head of the manifold itself, but rather the temperature of the incoming air/fuel mixture.
As far as the amount of blend, the IAT controls the fueling 100%, with no reliance on the CTS. The CTS is still used for startup fuel, AE compensation, etc, but the IAT is in control 100% for other things.
I dunno exactly how RBob's EBL IAT/CTS code works, but on the TBI PCM all it does is change the values calculated from the Inverse Air Density @ Sea Level vs. Blended intake temp value, which then indirectly changes the fuel delivery due to changes in density.
THe fueling seems to stay VERY accurate with this arrangement, so much so that with the MAF it is scary. It stays between 127-129 on both the Integrator and BLM. Air temperature and weather do not affect the way it runs. Humidity does not effect the fuel trims. Keep in mind this is after tweaking the MAF tables, VE tables, AE and DE with a wideband though.
FWIW, my MAF is a 5-pin design with an integrated IAT. I have seen variations of up to 60* in the temperature of the air flowing into the MAF vs. the intake charge temperature in a TBI manifold.
oldred95
07-05-2007, 01:02 AM
Chris are you saying I need to get the bird cage style sensor of the CTS style?
91chevZ71
07-05-2007, 02:01 AM
wow. 100 percent IAT for the blend? I'm going to move my birdcage IAT to my manifold, give IAT 90% blend, disable CL and see how it goes.
I'm going to use the WB to measure the AFR, then see how it goes with closed loop. Bet it won't be as sharp as it would be with a MAF though
-maybe I should re-tune my entire VE table in open loop with the wideband and the "new" IAT config (for me anyway), then fine tune AE and stuff.
It kinda makes sense, the intake charge is moving fast and IAT is more accurate than CTS for the main fueling
who knows, though. I am still a newbie.
good stuff
-Fast
do you think there's an issue with the plastic style birdcage IAT becoming corroded from the fuel/air mix and breaking off into the charge?
I'm going to use the WB to measure the AFR, then see how it goes with closed loop. Bet it won't be as sharp as it would be with a MAF though
-maybe I should re-tune my entire VE table in open loop with the wideband and the "new" IAT config (for me anyway), then fine tune AE and stuff.
It kinda makes sense, the intake charge is moving fast and IAT is more accurate than CTS for the main fueling
who knows, though. I am still a newbie.
good stuff
-Fast
do you think there's an issue with the plastic style birdcage IAT becoming corroded from the fuel/air mix and breaking off into the charge?
oldred95
07-18-2007, 06:38 PM
-Fast
do you think there's an issue with the plastic style birdcage IAT becoming corroded from the fuel/air mix and breaking off into the charge?
I just got my AX1 bird cage style IAT sensor and its got the same plastic bird cage. I was assuming it would be brass as it looked that way in the pic but it is indeed plastic. I don't really think there will be a problem with it but I thought I'd revive this thread and see if someone has some more input on a plastic bird cage sensor.
do you think there's an issue with the plastic style birdcage IAT becoming corroded from the fuel/air mix and breaking off into the charge?
I just got my AX1 bird cage style IAT sensor and its got the same plastic bird cage. I was assuming it would be brass as it looked that way in the pic but it is indeed plastic. I don't really think there will be a problem with it but I thought I'd revive this thread and see if someone has some more input on a plastic bird cage sensor.
oldred95
08-01-2007, 07:41 PM
Can someone tell me what style pins I need for my PCM harness so I can add a wire for the IAT/MAT sensor? The guys at the parts counter at work "know nothing" and say the only way is to pull one of the existing pins out and compare it to about a thousand different pins that might fit it. There has to be an easier way.
HaulnA$$
08-01-2007, 10:22 PM
Can someone tell me what style pins I need for my PCM harness so I can add a wire for the IAT/MAT sensor? The guys at the parts counter at work "know nothing" and say the only way is to pull one of the existing pins out and compare it to about a thousand different pins that might fit it. There has to be an easier way.http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/faq/gm_connectors.html . Near the bottom of the page. You need special crimpers to install the pins correctly. Sometimes you can bend the crimpable wings over and solder the wire if you are careful. You can buy the pins at http://www.rosesandwrenches.com/ , but the site seems to be down. There is a contact number though. HTH
oldred95
08-02-2007, 05:49 AM
That was so much easier then arguing with the parts guys. Thanks you very much Tom.
rob
08-02-2007, 12:47 PM
couldn't a man use the MAT sensor from an early 90's 2.5L TBI 4cyl? I believe they are the bird-cage style, and they should obviously be meant to deal with the Fuel in the intake runners.
not sure if there is a difference between this style and the aforementioned TPI style sensor, but the TPI would be a dry intake.
not sure if there is a difference between this style and the aforementioned TPI style sensor, but the TPI would be a dry intake.
oldred95
08-02-2007, 04:59 PM
I've got the AX1 bird cage 6.5 turbo diesel air inlet temp sensor (somethin like that anyway) that I'm going to use. Its got a plastic bird cage but I'm guessing its plastic so there is no heat soak into the actual sensor part of it, but the rest of the sensor body is brass.
pfk
08-04-2007, 03:34 AM
couldn't a man use the MAT sensor from an early 90's 2.5L TBI 4cyl? I believe they are the bird-cage style, and they should obviously be meant to deal with the Fuel in the intake runners.
not sure if there is a difference between this style and the aforementioned TPI style sensor, but the TPI would be a dry intake.
Part # for a 91 pontiac 6000 with a 2.5 would be an AX3 or acdelco part # 213-190. The plug appears to be round but I can not tell from the pics if it is metal or plastic. I can't see the plastice being affected by the gas myself.
not sure if there is a difference between this style and the aforementioned TPI style sensor, but the TPI would be a dry intake.
Part # for a 91 pontiac 6000 with a 2.5 would be an AX3 or acdelco part # 213-190. The plug appears to be round but I can not tell from the pics if it is metal or plastic. I can't see the plastice being affected by the gas myself.
Blue71
08-07-2007, 06:17 AM
ok, I got the AX1 style IAT sensor, will be in the number 8 intake runner on my performer intake mainfold.
AX1 is a two wire sensor one wire go's to B9 on my 7427 pcm, and I'll assume that the other one goes to ground ?
Is the code already built in to the 7427 or do I need a hack to utilize it ?
AX1 is a two wire sensor one wire go's to B9 on my 7427 pcm, and I'll assume that the other one goes to ground ?
Is the code already built in to the 7427 or do I need a hack to utilize it ?
Red94Chev
01-15-2008, 11:01 PM
The IAT sensor seems pretty important for tuning from what I've read, allowing the engine to compensate for ambient air temps. Why wouldn't GM incorporate this into the 305/350 TBI engines? Does the PCM compensate for this using the CTS somehow?
91chevZ71
01-16-2008, 07:35 AM
The IAT sensor seems pretty important for tuning from what I've read, allowing the engine to compensate for ambient air temps. Why wouldn't GM incorporate this into the 305/350 TBI engines? Does the PCM compensate for this using the CTS somehow?
because with GM's stock air cleaner assy kept the inlet air at pretty much a constant temp. nice n hot
I know the TBI F-bodies got IAT, but they had some form of a cold air intake system I think.
Since we usually change all that, IAT/MAT is a great addition.
FWIW
I've had to give my CTS a little more control over fueling below 40 g/sec. IAT's rose at idle and my AFR's started to climb slowly, which affected idle quality. at least I know it works
because with GM's stock air cleaner assy kept the inlet air at pretty much a constant temp. nice n hot
I know the TBI F-bodies got IAT, but they had some form of a cold air intake system I think.
Since we usually change all that, IAT/MAT is a great addition.
FWIW
I've had to give my CTS a little more control over fueling below 40 g/sec. IAT's rose at idle and my AFR's started to climb slowly, which affected idle quality. at least I know it works
Red94Chev
01-16-2008, 08:20 AM
because with GM's stock air cleaner assy kept the inlet air at pretty much a constant temp. nice n hot
I know the TBI F-bodies got IAT, but they had some form of a cold air intake system I think.
Since we usually change all that, IAT/MAT is a great addition.
FWIW
I've had to give my CTS a little more control over fueling below 40 g/sec. IAT's rose at idle and my AFR's started to climb slowly, which affected idle quality. at least I know it works
Fair enough. How would you incorporate the IAT modifiers into the PCM calcs? Hooking up the sensor to the B9 position of the 7427 seems easy enough. Hacking the bin seems a little tougher.
I know the TBI F-bodies got IAT, but they had some form of a cold air intake system I think.
Since we usually change all that, IAT/MAT is a great addition.
FWIW
I've had to give my CTS a little more control over fueling below 40 g/sec. IAT's rose at idle and my AFR's started to climb slowly, which affected idle quality. at least I know it works
Fair enough. How would you incorporate the IAT modifiers into the PCM calcs? Hooking up the sensor to the B9 position of the 7427 seems easy enough. Hacking the bin seems a little tougher.
91chevZ71
01-16-2008, 08:27 AM
I think Dimented24x7 over at thirdgen has made code changes to some $0D code to let it use IAT/MAT. Haulin'A$$ and Fast305 know more about the code stuff than I do. Might need an xdf that has the tables already constructed. 1Bad or 94Blazer probably know, also
MSlewis
01-16-2008, 08:52 AM
Sounds like an excellent upgrade for my AirGap setup as well, would love to know how to accomplish the task code wise as I have found myself to be "CODE ILLITERATE".
91chevZ71
01-16-2008, 10:34 AM
Sounds like an excellent upgrade for my AirGap setup as well, would love to know how to accomplish the task code wise as I have found myself to be "CODE ILLITERATE".
I've heard some things about the air-gap that make me feel using MAT is probably required for that manifold.
I've heard some things about the air-gap that make me feel using MAT is probably required for that manifold.
oldred95
01-16-2008, 12:20 PM
I've heard some things about the air-gap that make me feel using MAT is probably required for that manifold.
I was running manifold air temps in the teens on a 45-50 degree day and my intake is not an air gap. I can't imagine how cold the air gap must get.
I was running manifold air temps in the teens on a 45-50 degree day and my intake is not an air gap. I can't imagine how cold the air gap must get.
91chevZ71
01-16-2008, 12:26 PM
frosty
MSlewis
01-23-2008, 11:29 AM
From FAST As far as the amount of blend, the IAT controls the fueling 100%, with no reliance on the CTS. The CTS is still used for startup fuel, AE compensation, etc, but the IAT is in control 100% for other things.
From 91chevyZ71I've had to give my CTS a little more control over fueling below 40 g/sec. IAT's rose at idle and my AFR's started to climb slowly, which affected idle quality. at least I know it works
So does the blend table have control over the final calculation?
Here is what worked well for me. I run the bird-cage style sensor in the intake manifold vacuum fitting on my TBI 350. It has an almost instant response and seems to represent the conditions in the manifold the best. The cage style is not picking up the head of the manifold itself, but rather the temperature of the incoming air/fuel mixture.
I tend to agree with this configuration, appears to be more logical for a TBI settup as the air fuel mixing at the throttle plane actually creates a decrease in temp over incoming air temp,like an orifice tube in the A/C system.The AirGap compounds this by not being heated and a rich mixture adds to it as well.
From 91chevyZ71I've had to give my CTS a little more control over fueling below 40 g/sec. IAT's rose at idle and my AFR's started to climb slowly, which affected idle quality. at least I know it works
So does the blend table have control over the final calculation?
Here is what worked well for me. I run the bird-cage style sensor in the intake manifold vacuum fitting on my TBI 350. It has an almost instant response and seems to represent the conditions in the manifold the best. The cage style is not picking up the head of the manifold itself, but rather the temperature of the incoming air/fuel mixture.
I tend to agree with this configuration, appears to be more logical for a TBI settup as the air fuel mixing at the throttle plane actually creates a decrease in temp over incoming air temp,like an orifice tube in the A/C system.The AirGap compounds this by not being heated and a rich mixture adds to it as well.
91chevZ71
01-24-2008, 07:29 AM
So does the blend table have control over the final calculation?
I tend to agree with this configuration, appears to be more logical for a TBI settup as the air fuel mixing at the throttle plane actually creates a decrease in temp over incoming air temp,like an orifice tube in the A/C system.The AirGap compounds this by not being heated and a rich mixture adds to it as well.
yeah, it does have control. with EBL, you can set up how much CTS or IAT you want the computer to use for a given airflow.
like idle- 95% CTS, 5% MAT
at WOT- 60% CTS, 40% MAT
that's just an example.
Fast can probably specify on the 7427/MAF/$0D(god knows what else he's done to that code lol) on how MAT is applied in that stuff
I tend to agree with this configuration, appears to be more logical for a TBI settup as the air fuel mixing at the throttle plane actually creates a decrease in temp over incoming air temp,like an orifice tube in the A/C system.The AirGap compounds this by not being heated and a rich mixture adds to it as well.
yeah, it does have control. with EBL, you can set up how much CTS or IAT you want the computer to use for a given airflow.
like idle- 95% CTS, 5% MAT
at WOT- 60% CTS, 40% MAT
that's just an example.
Fast can probably specify on the 7427/MAF/$0D(god knows what else he's done to that code lol) on how MAT is applied in that stuff
Blue71
03-02-2008, 07:22 PM
I thought I would resurrect this thread from the dead, lots of good info here.
Just for the heck of it(and from lack of any thing better to do)I install another
IAT sensor, I already had a AX-1 in the # 8 intake runner (marked in red in the pic),
although not to control fueling at this point, just dataloggin.
Installed a Plastic pushin birdcage style in the air cleaner spacer ring, (marked in green)
put in a switch so that I could go back and forth between the two and datalog.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/93BlueZ71/Passengersside-IATX2.jpg
I was quite amazed at the temp differences between the two air temps reading,
with approximatly 10 inches between the two sensor I had a pretty good degree spread.
the green sensor was more in line with the outside air temps most of the time,
the red sensor was always about 40 degree higher.
with the engine idling for long periods of time the spread would become greater.
All in All it was fun to watch. the sensor in the intake runner was a lot slower to respond
then the one in the ring, too intake temp differences, probably from heat soak,
and no fuel to cool it off.
Just for the heck of it(and from lack of any thing better to do)I install another
IAT sensor, I already had a AX-1 in the # 8 intake runner (marked in red in the pic),
although not to control fueling at this point, just dataloggin.
Installed a Plastic pushin birdcage style in the air cleaner spacer ring, (marked in green)
put in a switch so that I could go back and forth between the two and datalog.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/93BlueZ71/Passengersside-IATX2.jpg
I was quite amazed at the temp differences between the two air temps reading,
with approximatly 10 inches between the two sensor I had a pretty good degree spread.
the green sensor was more in line with the outside air temps most of the time,
the red sensor was always about 40 degree higher.
with the engine idling for long periods of time the spread would become greater.
All in All it was fun to watch. the sensor in the intake runner was a lot slower to respond
then the one in the ring, too intake temp differences, probably from heat soak,
and no fuel to cool it off.
Fast305
03-02-2008, 07:27 PM
I thought I would resurrect this thread from the dead, lots of good info here.
Just for the heck of it(and from lack of any thing better to do day)I install another
IAT sensor, I already had a AX-1 in the # 8 intake runner (marked in red in the pic),
although not to control fueling at this point, just dataloggin.
Installed a Plastic pushin birdcage style in the air cleaner spacer ring, (marked in green)
put in a switch so that I could go back and forth between the two and datalog.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/93BlueZ71/Passengersside-IATX2.jpg
I was quite amazed at the temp differences between the two air temps reading,
with approximatly 10 inches between the two sensor I had a pretty good degree spread.
the green sensor was more in line with the outside air temps most of the time,
the red sensor was always about 40 degree higher.
with the engine idling for long periods of time the spread would become greater.
All in All it was fun to watch. the sensor in the intake runner was a lot slower to respond
then the one in the ring, too intake temp differences, probably from heat soak,
and no fuel to cool it off.
I definately understand that. My TPI setup has two IATs and I have them setup so that I can switch between them easily as well. One is in the MAF and the other in stock TPI location on the bottem of the plenum. The plenum stays exponentially warmer than the one in the MAF.
Just for the heck of it(and from lack of any thing better to do day)I install another
IAT sensor, I already had a AX-1 in the # 8 intake runner (marked in red in the pic),
although not to control fueling at this point, just dataloggin.
Installed a Plastic pushin birdcage style in the air cleaner spacer ring, (marked in green)
put in a switch so that I could go back and forth between the two and datalog.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/93BlueZ71/Passengersside-IATX2.jpg
I was quite amazed at the temp differences between the two air temps reading,
with approximatly 10 inches between the two sensor I had a pretty good degree spread.
the green sensor was more in line with the outside air temps most of the time,
the red sensor was always about 40 degree higher.
with the engine idling for long periods of time the spread would become greater.
All in All it was fun to watch. the sensor in the intake runner was a lot slower to respond
then the one in the ring, too intake temp differences, probably from heat soak,
and no fuel to cool it off.
I definately understand that. My TPI setup has two IATs and I have them setup so that I can switch between them easily as well. One is in the MAF and the other in stock TPI location on the bottem of the plenum. The plenum stays exponentially warmer than the one in the MAF.
Blue71
03-02-2008, 08:55 PM
Curious, to what a TBI (wet flow) setup like this would show, as far as temp spread and response time.
Fast305
03-02-2008, 09:42 PM
Curious, to what a TBI (wet flow) setup like this would show, as far as temp spread and response time.
The TBI wet manifold temps drop like a rock from the second the throttle is open, to a temp well below the intake air temperature.
The TBI wet manifold temps drop like a rock from the second the throttle is open, to a temp well below the intake air temperature.
Tbi-MAX
03-24-2008, 08:47 AM
so after reading this thread several time, its better to use the birdcage.. so i found 1 from a 95 turbo diesel.. The links Haulin@$$ provided was great with part #s... so now i need to buy the crimp terminals... and i must buy 10 of them, so its like 14$ just on the crimp terminals. the sensor is 17$... and i still need the harness.. so im about to check the dealer again..
where are you guys feeding your brake booster? after using intake runner 8 for the MAT?
where are you guys feeding your brake booster? after using intake runner 8 for the MAT?
va454ss
03-24-2008, 09:39 AM
Drill and tap another hole in an intake runner or the plenum for a fitting.
oldred95
03-24-2008, 10:47 AM
so after reading this thread several time, its better to use the birdcage.. so i found 1 from a 95 turbo diesel.. The links Haulin@$$ provided was great with part #s... so now i need to buy the crimp terminals... and i must buy 10 of them, so its like 14$ just on the crimp terminals. the sensor is 17$... and i still need the harness.. so im about to check the dealer again..
where are you guys feeding your brake booster? after using intake runner 8 for the MAT?
http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/100.aspx
I bought 10 of them for 5 bucks shipped. I found the pigtail at work in a bucket of connector ends one of the guys strips out of every harness that gets replaced. I know that doesn't help you but thats where I found mine. EFIconnection shows an IAT pigtail but its pricey IMO and without seeing it in my hands I can't say if it will fit or not. On the back of the spread bore to 454 throttle body apater there is a 1/4 inch pipe port and the passage comes out right under the IAC valve passage and thats where it gets its vacuum. Found a 1/4 inch pipe to 1/2 inch hose barb, ran my boost hose to it and problem solved.
where are you guys feeding your brake booster? after using intake runner 8 for the MAT?
http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/100.aspx
I bought 10 of them for 5 bucks shipped. I found the pigtail at work in a bucket of connector ends one of the guys strips out of every harness that gets replaced. I know that doesn't help you but thats where I found mine. EFIconnection shows an IAT pigtail but its pricey IMO and without seeing it in my hands I can't say if it will fit or not. On the back of the spread bore to 454 throttle body apater there is a 1/4 inch pipe port and the passage comes out right under the IAC valve passage and thats where it gets its vacuum. Found a 1/4 inch pipe to 1/2 inch hose barb, ran my boost hose to it and problem solved.
va454ss
03-24-2008, 11:26 AM
I grabbed the connector plug off of an old harness I had. You could probably find one in a junkyard pretty easily.
Also, Carquest had a book full of OEM connectors; might want to look there.
Also, Carquest had a book full of OEM connectors; might want to look there.
Tbi-MAX
03-24-2008, 12:32 PM
great on the terminals... im going to order them. but hey i dont even have a boss in my new intake.. :banghead: so that means i might just have to end up drilling for 2 bosses? cause i can have 1 for MAT, and 1 for boost with a nipple..
oldred i dont have the riser anymore.. :(
oldred i dont have the riser anymore.. :(
pfk
03-24-2008, 01:21 PM
Here is what worked well for me. I run the bird-cage style sensor in the intake manifold vacuum fitting on my TBI 350. It has an almost instant response and seems to represent the conditions in the manifold the best. The cage style is not picking up the head of the manifold itself, but rather the temperature of the incoming air/fuel mixture.
As far as the amount of blend, the IAT controls the fueling 100%, with no reliance on the CTS. The CTS is still used for startup fuel, AE compensation, etc, but the IAT is in control 100% for other things.
I dunno exactly how RBob's EBL IAT/CTS code works, but on the TBI PCM all it does is change the values calculated from the Inverse Air Density @ Sea Level vs. Blended intake temp value, which then indirectly changes the fuel delivery due to changes in density.
THe fueling seems to stay VERY accurate with this arrangement, so much so that with the MAF it is scary. It stays between 127-129 on both the Integrator and BLM. Air temperature and weather do not affect the way it runs. Humidity does not effect the fuel trims. Keep in mind this is after tweaking the MAF tables, VE tables, AE and DE with a wideband though.
FWIW, my MAF is a 5-pin design with an integrated IAT. I have seen variations of up to 60* in the temperature of the air flowing into the MAF vs. the intake charge temperature in a TBI manifold.
After thinking this over , I am confused once again,
Are you using the MAT sensor option in the MAF code (along with a sensor in the manifold) or are you using the IAT sensor that is integrated in the MAF sensor itself?
In my application, I actually have 3 air temp sensors to choose from, the integrated IAT in the MAF sensor, one in the #8 runner, and one in the bonnet (was preinstalled with the s/c bonnet)
what I don't understand is if the MAF code can use 2 different sensors or only use one. I think my best bet would be to use the one in the intake runner, 2nd choice would be the one in the bonnet so that it could pick up any increase in temp from the s/c.
to those who are looking for connectors, if you have a scrap yard in your area, it is easy enough to purchase a chunk of the harness for your needs. sometimes it will even be free. I cut the ecm harness approx 12 inches back and have 2 complete connectors with all of the pins ready to work with. I find it easy enough to solder onto the 12" of leftover wire. it sucks because I have a large box of probably thousands of new ecm female pins (all the same kind) and while they do fit the pin of the ecm, they will not lock correctly into the connector.
As far as the amount of blend, the IAT controls the fueling 100%, with no reliance on the CTS. The CTS is still used for startup fuel, AE compensation, etc, but the IAT is in control 100% for other things.
I dunno exactly how RBob's EBL IAT/CTS code works, but on the TBI PCM all it does is change the values calculated from the Inverse Air Density @ Sea Level vs. Blended intake temp value, which then indirectly changes the fuel delivery due to changes in density.
THe fueling seems to stay VERY accurate with this arrangement, so much so that with the MAF it is scary. It stays between 127-129 on both the Integrator and BLM. Air temperature and weather do not affect the way it runs. Humidity does not effect the fuel trims. Keep in mind this is after tweaking the MAF tables, VE tables, AE and DE with a wideband though.
FWIW, my MAF is a 5-pin design with an integrated IAT. I have seen variations of up to 60* in the temperature of the air flowing into the MAF vs. the intake charge temperature in a TBI manifold.
After thinking this over , I am confused once again,
Are you using the MAT sensor option in the MAF code (along with a sensor in the manifold) or are you using the IAT sensor that is integrated in the MAF sensor itself?
In my application, I actually have 3 air temp sensors to choose from, the integrated IAT in the MAF sensor, one in the #8 runner, and one in the bonnet (was preinstalled with the s/c bonnet)
what I don't understand is if the MAF code can use 2 different sensors or only use one. I think my best bet would be to use the one in the intake runner, 2nd choice would be the one in the bonnet so that it could pick up any increase in temp from the s/c.
to those who are looking for connectors, if you have a scrap yard in your area, it is easy enough to purchase a chunk of the harness for your needs. sometimes it will even be free. I cut the ecm harness approx 12 inches back and have 2 complete connectors with all of the pins ready to work with. I find it easy enough to solder onto the 12" of leftover wire. it sucks because I have a large box of probably thousands of new ecm female pins (all the same kind) and while they do fit the pin of the ecm, they will not lock correctly into the connector.
Tbi-MAX
03-25-2008, 04:19 AM
ok, so is drilling 2 bosses in intake runner 8? for the MAT and brake booster a good idea? i think that is what im going to do... VS drilling in any other runner.. ill put them besides each other... i also had to drill for a CTS sensor in the front of the water housing.
94Blazer383
03-25-2008, 10:39 AM
I think Dimented24x7 over at thirdgen has made code changes to some $0D code to let it use IAT/MAT. Haulin'A$$ and Fast305 know more about the code stuff than I do. Might need an xdf that has the tables already constructed. 1Bad or 94Blazer probably know, also
I have been threw this hole post and nobody has really said anything about enabling the MAT sensor in the code. This is what I think you will need to enable to make the MAT sensor work. This is from the $OD hack and only pertains to $OD code. ECM 6395, or 7427.
There are 3 bits that need to be enabled. The first is at L400B, bit 6
L400B FCB $0C ; MODE WD, AFR 1 0000 1100
; b7 1 = DE-LATCH
; b6 1 = MAT SENSOR
; b5 1 = 180 DEG OFFSET
; b4 1 = ASDF CRANK
;
; b3 1 = ACCEL ENRICH LMT OPTION
; b2 1 = SYNC FUEL AT IDLE (TBI)
; b1 1 = AIR MANANGE
; b0 1 = CPI/PFI MODE
The other 2 bits are here at L5B01, bits 6 and 7.
L5B01 FCB $A2 ; 1010 0010, ERR MASK 2
;
; b7 1 = ERR 22, TPS LOW
; b6 1 = ERR 23, MAT LOW
; b5 1 = ERR 24, OUTPUT XMISH SPD LOW
; b4 1 = ERR 25, MAT HIGH
;
; b3 1 = ERR 26,
; b2 1 = ERR 27, XMISH PRESS MANIFOLD
; b1 1 = ERR 28,
; b0 1 = ERR 29,
There are 3 tables that I see. The first one starts at L4433 and ends at L4492.
;---------------------------------------------
; BASE MAT SPK ADV CORR Vs. VAC & MAT
;
; Dissassemby of BDWM TYPE $0D
;
; TBL = SPK DEG + BAIS * 2.844
;---------------------------------------------
ORG $442F ;
L442F FCB 0 ; LD SELECT, ( 0 = VACUUM 1 = RPM)
ORG $4430 ;
L4430 FCB 80 ; Min MAT Val, (80 C)
L4431 FCB 0 ; Min VAC Value
L4432 FCB 12 ; COL'S/ROW
;---------------------------------------------
; 20 Deg c MAT
; SPK ADV Kpa VAC
;---------------------------------------------
L4433 FCB 0 ; 0.0 55
L4434 FCB 0 ; 0.0 50
L4435 FCB 0 ; 0.0 45
L4436 FCB 0 ; 0.0 40
L4437 FCB 0 ; 0.0 35
L4438 FCB 0 ; 0.0 30
L4439 FCB 0 ; 0.0 25
L443A FCB 0 ; 0.0 20
L443B FCB 0 ; 0.0 15
L443C FCB 0 ; 0.0 10
L443D FCB 0 ; 0.0 5
L443E FCB 0 ; 0.0 0
The next table starts at L4493 and ends at L44A3.
----------------------------------------------
MAT SPK ADV CORRECTION Vs. MAP
FOR NEGITIVE SPK ADVANCE
Dissassemby of BDWM
; TBL = 2.56 * MULT
;---------------------------------------------
ORG $4493 ; % MULT Kpa MAP
;---------------------------------
L4493 FCB 0 ; 0.0 20
L4494 FCB 0 ; 0.0 25
L4495 FCB 0 ; 0.0 30
L4496 FCB 0 ; 0.0 35
L4497 FCB 0 ; 0.0 40
L4498 FCB 0 ; 0.0 45
L4499 FCB 0 ; 0.0 50
L449A FCB 0 ; 0.0 55
L449B FCB 0 ; 0.0 60
L449C FCB 0 ; 0.0 65
L449D FCB 0 ; 0.0 70
L449E FCB 0 ; 0.0 75
L449F FCB 0 ; 0.0 80
L44A0 FCB 0 ; 0.0 85
L44A1 FCB 0 ; 0.0 90
L44A2 FCB 0 ; 0.0 95
L44A3 FCB 0 ; 0.0 100
The last one is at L44A4 and ends at L44B4.
;---------------------------------------------
; MAT SPK ADV CORRECTION Vs. MAP
; FOR POSITIVE SPK ADV'S
;
; Dissassemby of BDWM
; TBL = 2.56 * MULT
;---------------------------------------------
ORG $44A4 ; % MULT Kpa MAP
;---------------------------------
L44A4 FCB 0 ; 0.0 0
L44A5 FCB 0 ; 0.0 5
L44A6 FCB 0 ; 0.0 10
L44A7 FCB 0 ; 0.0 15
L44A8 FCB 0 ; 0.0 20
L44A9 FCB 0 ; 0.0 25
L44AA FCB 0 ; 0.0 30
L44AB FCB 0 ; 0.0 35
L44AC FCB 0 ; 0.0 40
L44AD FCB 0 ; 0.0 45
L44AE FCB 0 ; 0.0 50
L44AF FCB 0 ; 0.0 55
L44B0 FCB 0 ; 0.0 60
L44B1 FCB 0 ; 0.0 65
L44B2 FCB 0 ; 0.0 70
L44B3 FCB 0 ; 0.0 75
L44B4 FCB 0 ; 0.0 80
;-----------------------------------------------
There is also a MAT spark Bias table at L4104. It is zeroed out in the truck TBI code. The CPI vans have a value of around 10 degrees.
All of these tables have to do with spark advance. I have yet to find anything that has to do with fueling. It may be in there and I am just over looking it.
I have been threw this hole post and nobody has really said anything about enabling the MAT sensor in the code. This is what I think you will need to enable to make the MAT sensor work. This is from the $OD hack and only pertains to $OD code. ECM 6395, or 7427.
There are 3 bits that need to be enabled. The first is at L400B, bit 6
L400B FCB $0C ; MODE WD, AFR 1 0000 1100
; b7 1 = DE-LATCH
; b6 1 = MAT SENSOR
; b5 1 = 180 DEG OFFSET
; b4 1 = ASDF CRANK
;
; b3 1 = ACCEL ENRICH LMT OPTION
; b2 1 = SYNC FUEL AT IDLE (TBI)
; b1 1 = AIR MANANGE
; b0 1 = CPI/PFI MODE
The other 2 bits are here at L5B01, bits 6 and 7.
L5B01 FCB $A2 ; 1010 0010, ERR MASK 2
;
; b7 1 = ERR 22, TPS LOW
; b6 1 = ERR 23, MAT LOW
; b5 1 = ERR 24, OUTPUT XMISH SPD LOW
; b4 1 = ERR 25, MAT HIGH
;
; b3 1 = ERR 26,
; b2 1 = ERR 27, XMISH PRESS MANIFOLD
; b1 1 = ERR 28,
; b0 1 = ERR 29,
There are 3 tables that I see. The first one starts at L4433 and ends at L4492.
;---------------------------------------------
; BASE MAT SPK ADV CORR Vs. VAC & MAT
;
; Dissassemby of BDWM TYPE $0D
;
; TBL = SPK DEG + BAIS * 2.844
;---------------------------------------------
ORG $442F ;
L442F FCB 0 ; LD SELECT, ( 0 = VACUUM 1 = RPM)
ORG $4430 ;
L4430 FCB 80 ; Min MAT Val, (80 C)
L4431 FCB 0 ; Min VAC Value
L4432 FCB 12 ; COL'S/ROW
;---------------------------------------------
; 20 Deg c MAT
; SPK ADV Kpa VAC
;---------------------------------------------
L4433 FCB 0 ; 0.0 55
L4434 FCB 0 ; 0.0 50
L4435 FCB 0 ; 0.0 45
L4436 FCB 0 ; 0.0 40
L4437 FCB 0 ; 0.0 35
L4438 FCB 0 ; 0.0 30
L4439 FCB 0 ; 0.0 25
L443A FCB 0 ; 0.0 20
L443B FCB 0 ; 0.0 15
L443C FCB 0 ; 0.0 10
L443D FCB 0 ; 0.0 5
L443E FCB 0 ; 0.0 0
The next table starts at L4493 and ends at L44A3.
----------------------------------------------
MAT SPK ADV CORRECTION Vs. MAP
FOR NEGITIVE SPK ADVANCE
Dissassemby of BDWM
; TBL = 2.56 * MULT
;---------------------------------------------
ORG $4493 ; % MULT Kpa MAP
;---------------------------------
L4493 FCB 0 ; 0.0 20
L4494 FCB 0 ; 0.0 25
L4495 FCB 0 ; 0.0 30
L4496 FCB 0 ; 0.0 35
L4497 FCB 0 ; 0.0 40
L4498 FCB 0 ; 0.0 45
L4499 FCB 0 ; 0.0 50
L449A FCB 0 ; 0.0 55
L449B FCB 0 ; 0.0 60
L449C FCB 0 ; 0.0 65
L449D FCB 0 ; 0.0 70
L449E FCB 0 ; 0.0 75
L449F FCB 0 ; 0.0 80
L44A0 FCB 0 ; 0.0 85
L44A1 FCB 0 ; 0.0 90
L44A2 FCB 0 ; 0.0 95
L44A3 FCB 0 ; 0.0 100
The last one is at L44A4 and ends at L44B4.
;---------------------------------------------
; MAT SPK ADV CORRECTION Vs. MAP
; FOR POSITIVE SPK ADV'S
;
; Dissassemby of BDWM
; TBL = 2.56 * MULT
;---------------------------------------------
ORG $44A4 ; % MULT Kpa MAP
;---------------------------------
L44A4 FCB 0 ; 0.0 0
L44A5 FCB 0 ; 0.0 5
L44A6 FCB 0 ; 0.0 10
L44A7 FCB 0 ; 0.0 15
L44A8 FCB 0 ; 0.0 20
L44A9 FCB 0 ; 0.0 25
L44AA FCB 0 ; 0.0 30
L44AB FCB 0 ; 0.0 35
L44AC FCB 0 ; 0.0 40
L44AD FCB 0 ; 0.0 45
L44AE FCB 0 ; 0.0 50
L44AF FCB 0 ; 0.0 55
L44B0 FCB 0 ; 0.0 60
L44B1 FCB 0 ; 0.0 65
L44B2 FCB 0 ; 0.0 70
L44B3 FCB 0 ; 0.0 75
L44B4 FCB 0 ; 0.0 80
;-----------------------------------------------
There is also a MAT spark Bias table at L4104. It is zeroed out in the truck TBI code. The CPI vans have a value of around 10 degrees.
All of these tables have to do with spark advance. I have yet to find anything that has to do with fueling. It may be in there and I am just over looking it.
HaulnA$$
03-25-2008, 08:25 PM
.....All of these tables have to do with spark advance. I have yet to find anything that has to do with fueling. It may be in there and I am just over looking it.Look at $4AD9. HTH
94Blazer383
03-26-2008, 06:55 AM
Look at $4AD9. HTH
Ahhh...I looked over that. I am going to add this stuff to my xdf and start playing around. I might just have to get me a MAT sensor.
Ahhh...I looked over that. I am going to add this stuff to my xdf and start playing around. I might just have to get me a MAT sensor.
MSlewis
04-08-2008, 07:07 PM
So how many of you that have invested in this post have actually figured how to not only install the sensor , but also modified the tables/code to run the MAT succesfully???
What, if any, problems have you run into along the way???
And lastly, what benefits/gains did you experience???
What, if any, problems have you run into along the way???
And lastly, what benefits/gains did you experience???
HaulnA$$
04-08-2008, 07:22 PM
So how many of you that have invested in this post have actually figured how to not only install the sensor , but also modified the tables/code to run the MAT succesfully???
What, if any, problems have you run into along the way???
And lastly, what benefits/gains did you experience???As far as gains go, the biggest advantage to a MAT/IAT sensor is that BLM's will be much more steady. This can improve fuel economy Also, depending on your induction setup, you could see improved performance in hot or cold weather. It is an easy thing to set up and tune for. Be sure to do your base tuning at very similar air intake temps or you will be chasing your tail.
What, if any, problems have you run into along the way???
And lastly, what benefits/gains did you experience???As far as gains go, the biggest advantage to a MAT/IAT sensor is that BLM's will be much more steady. This can improve fuel economy Also, depending on your induction setup, you could see improved performance in hot or cold weather. It is an easy thing to set up and tune for. Be sure to do your base tuning at very similar air intake temps or you will be chasing your tail.
pfk
04-08-2008, 11:04 PM
As far as gains go, the biggest advantage to a MAT/IAT sensor is that BLM's will be much more steady. This can improve fuel economy Also, depending on your induction setup, you could see improved performance in hot or cold weather. It is an easy thing to set up and tune for. Be sure to do your base tuning at very similar air intake temps or you will be chasing your tail.
It's funny you say that, I plugged mine in when I reinstalled my motor and I think it threw my tune out to lunch. I starting changing things that were working before and have been at it for about 3hours now. As I was parking my truck in the shop, I remembered that I had plugged in the plenum sensor instead of the IAT, so I will have to go back to it tomorrow to see how it goes.
I noticed a few differences with the new crank but I'll wait until tomorrow in case it warrants posting in a different thread (it may not be the temp sensor)
It's funny you say that, I plugged mine in when I reinstalled my motor and I think it threw my tune out to lunch. I starting changing things that were working before and have been at it for about 3hours now. As I was parking my truck in the shop, I remembered that I had plugged in the plenum sensor instead of the IAT, so I will have to go back to it tomorrow to see how it goes.
I noticed a few differences with the new crank but I'll wait until tomorrow in case it warrants posting in a different thread (it may not be the temp sensor)
Blue71
04-09-2008, 07:22 AM
I have a working IAT, only data logging it this point to help tune at the same air temp. Still have not figured out how to use it to my advantage, the tables are still 0’ed out, flag unchecked.
Tbi-MAX
04-09-2008, 07:24 AM
mines installed in the intake. still need to find the harness for it, and pin to fit my harness at the pcm. i really need to make a trip to the yard. but i do plan on dialing it in soon as that gets done.
oldred95
04-09-2008, 07:56 AM
So I guess this would be the next question. After you have setup all those tables and flags into your XDF and by stock they are all at zero, where do you start? Do you take a WAG and throw some numbers at it and see what it does or do you find the values from a car or truck that used a MAT and start out with those values and adjust as necessary?
Tbi-MAX
04-09-2008, 06:21 PM
good question... hmm
91chevZ71
04-09-2008, 08:28 PM
Rbob's calcs on IAT are good to go with EBL, FWIW.
Solid AFR's on cold start through warm up
Solid AFR's on cold start through warm up
oldred95
04-09-2008, 09:56 PM
Rbob's calcs on IAT are good to go with EBL, FWIW.
Solid AFR's on cold start through warm up
Are the MAT calculations universal or different for each vehicle. I found an older thread on TGO and fast305/355 said to use the stock 4.3 liter CPI MAT settings but that was a dry intake setup and I believe he was running the TPI intake when that was posted and meant the 4.3 settings will work well with the dry TPI style intake. I have an old bin of his when he was running vortec heads with the TBI and MAF and the MAT tables are very different from the 4.3 CPI bin.
Solid AFR's on cold start through warm up
Are the MAT calculations universal or different for each vehicle. I found an older thread on TGO and fast305/355 said to use the stock 4.3 liter CPI MAT settings but that was a dry intake setup and I believe he was running the TPI intake when that was posted and meant the 4.3 settings will work well with the dry TPI style intake. I have an old bin of his when he was running vortec heads with the TBI and MAF and the MAT tables are very different from the 4.3 CPI bin.
Blue71
04-09-2008, 10:04 PM
Are the MAT calculations universal or different for each vehicle. I found an older thread on TGO and fast305/355 said to use the stock 4.3 liter CPI MAT settings but that was a dry intake setup and I believe he was running the TPI intake when that was posted and meant the 4.3 settings will work well with the dry TPI style intake. I have an old bin of his when he was running vortec heads with the TBI and MAF and the MAT tables are very different from the 4.3 CPI bin.
Was this the bin (BSWX) 4.3 V6
Was this the bin (BSWX) 4.3 V6
94Blazer383
04-10-2008, 05:44 AM
Here are a couple CPI Van bins that I got out of a junckyard if anyone wants to take a look. You know the drill change .txt to .bin
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/2879632-post38.html
I havent had time to mess with mine yet, I just bought a dirt bike and have been playing with that...Honda XR 650R...
http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/2879632-post38.html
I havent had time to mess with mine yet, I just bought a dirt bike and have been playing with that...Honda XR 650R...
oldred95
04-10-2008, 06:12 AM
Was this the bin (BSWX) 4.3 V6
Its BNBH OD 4.3 liter CPI
Its BNBH OD 4.3 liter CPI
Tbi-MAX
04-10-2008, 06:14 AM
so who has the MAT working now? seems like a bunch of us has it installed, but are not even making function of it in the tables... lol
:think:
where is Fast305 and his knowledge?
im talkin 7427 pcm here...
:think:
where is Fast305 and his knowledge?
im talkin 7427 pcm here...
Blue71
04-10-2008, 06:35 AM
Could not find the BNBH, I did a comparison on BSWX,BNBJ,BHRD all OD mask 4.3 V6, some tables are the same.
Acceleration enrichment temperature correction multiplier vs mat and mat pos spark advance correction factor vs map, are very much different.
All the rest the same table settings.
Acceleration enrichment temperature correction multiplier vs mat and mat pos spark advance correction factor vs map, are very much different.
All the rest the same table settings.
oldred95
04-10-2008, 07:41 AM
so who has the MAT working now? seems like a bunch of us has it installed, but are not even making function of it in the tables... lol
:think:
where is Fast305 and his knowledge?
im talkin 7427 pcm here...
He said his laptop power supply died and for whatever reason he won't use his desktop. I guess its UMIAC's twin and its even slower then my laptop I run everything off of.
All I know is if you are going to be barrowing MAT settings from a .BIN it needs to be an engine that has a wet intake and I'm not too awful sure that GM ever made a wet intake engine with a MAT sensor.
:think:
where is Fast305 and his knowledge?
im talkin 7427 pcm here...
He said his laptop power supply died and for whatever reason he won't use his desktop. I guess its UMIAC's twin and its even slower then my laptop I run everything off of.
All I know is if you are going to be barrowing MAT settings from a .BIN it needs to be an engine that has a wet intake and I'm not too awful sure that GM ever made a wet intake engine with a MAT sensor.
Tbi-MAX
04-10-2008, 03:02 PM
All I know is if you are going to be barrowing MAT settings from a .BIN it needs to be an engine that has a wet intake and I'm not too awful sure that GM ever made a wet intake engine with a MAT sensor.
what about a 92 chevy caprice? i think it has a MAT stock. im ready to get mine working now, since the highrise is working great with the new AE tune.
what about a 92 chevy caprice? i think it has a MAT stock. im ready to get mine working now, since the highrise is working great with the new AE tune.
93V8S10
04-10-2008, 06:26 PM
91 Caprice has IAT, in air filter.
oldred95
04-10-2008, 07:20 PM
That is an IAT and not a MAT. The MAT is the money maker here. We just need to know how to set it up to enable it.
pfk
04-10-2008, 07:32 PM
I remembered this post from earlier on in the thread, figured it was relevant if you were looking for something to compare to
couldn't a man use the MAT sensor from an early 90's 2.5L TBI 4cyl? I believe they are the bird-cage style, and they should obviously be meant to deal with the Fuel in the intake runners.
not sure if there is a difference between this style and the aforementioned TPI style sensor, but the TPI would be a dry intake.
couldn't a man use the MAT sensor from an early 90's 2.5L TBI 4cyl? I believe they are the bird-cage style, and they should obviously be meant to deal with the Fuel in the intake runners.
not sure if there is a difference between this style and the aforementioned TPI style sensor, but the TPI would be a dry intake.
Blue71
04-10-2008, 07:37 PM
That is an IAT and not a MAT. The MAT is the money maker here. We just need to know how to set it up to enable it.
Hmmm, and here I thought this thread was about IAT. :think:
Hmmm, and here I thought this thread was about IAT. :think:
91chevZ71
04-10-2008, 07:38 PM
There is a difference between a MAT (Manifold Air Temp) sensor and an IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor. A TBI is better suited to a MAT sensor since the wall wetting and suspended fuel tend to cool the charge, a MAT sensor can detect this where an IAT cannot. A MAT sensor will react slower but it works better on TBI. IAT sensor is better on port injection. JMHO. HTH
:word:
:word:
91chevZ71
04-10-2008, 07:39 PM
yah, someone needs to crack the code on this 7427 air temp thing.
where's Fast
where's Fast
HaulnA$$
04-10-2008, 08:58 PM
yah, someone needs to crack the code on this 7427 air temp thing.
where's FastWhat do you mean, "crack the code on this 7427 air temp thing."? The code was cracked years ago. I have been running a MAT sensor for almost four years now. It is not astrophysics. Enable the sensor, tune at a mean air temperature and use that for a zero basis. Add fuel for cooler denser air and remove fuel for thinner hotter air. Same with spark. Blend coolant temp in slowly. More CTS compensation for a heated intake, less for non-heated. Datalogs will tell you when you have it right. I don't understand the aprehensiveness to adding an air temperature sensor. Many complain about BLM's or AFR's in open loop that wander all over the place. This is normal for a system without air temperature compensation. An air temperature sensor will fix this and settle the BLM's or AFR's down as weather and conditions change. Just do it.
where's FastWhat do you mean, "crack the code on this 7427 air temp thing."? The code was cracked years ago. I have been running a MAT sensor for almost four years now. It is not astrophysics. Enable the sensor, tune at a mean air temperature and use that for a zero basis. Add fuel for cooler denser air and remove fuel for thinner hotter air. Same with spark. Blend coolant temp in slowly. More CTS compensation for a heated intake, less for non-heated. Datalogs will tell you when you have it right. I don't understand the aprehensiveness to adding an air temperature sensor. Many complain about BLM's or AFR's in open loop that wander all over the place. This is normal for a system without air temperature compensation. An air temperature sensor will fix this and settle the BLM's or AFR's down as weather and conditions change. Just do it.
91chevZ71
04-10-2008, 09:24 PM
I mean crack it by making it more user-friendly on the xdf side of the house for the 7427. I haven't seen an xdf with any IAT stuff in it yet save one flag I think, which was AE MAT adjust or something like that. I guess I'm kinda spoiled by the EBL and the IAT/MAT stuff it has. I know building xdf's and dissecting code is tough, that's why I was being a little sarcastic.
pfk
04-10-2008, 10:39 PM
................. Many complain about BLM's or AFR's in open loop that wander all over the place. This is normal for a system without air temperature compensation. An air temperature sensor will fix this and settle the BLM's or AFR's down as weather and conditions change. Just do it.
When you say "AFR's ....all over the place" do you mean +/- 1 AFR or do you mean +/- 5 AFR?
Mine are going nuts right now (will shoot way out of range)and I can't find an explanation for it. If it means getting the air temp sensor working, then I will get right on it
EDIT:
I just found this post on TGO:
People keep forgetting that a MAF car doesn't NEED to know the air temp (or air pressure change caused by elevation either)....the MAF Sensor detects this when it measures the air flow.... colder air, more cooling of the wire, more air flow reported to the ECM by the MAF (in simplistic terms).
if this is correct, making the temp sensor function will have no effect on my current situation :think:
When you say "AFR's ....all over the place" do you mean +/- 1 AFR or do you mean +/- 5 AFR?
Mine are going nuts right now (will shoot way out of range)and I can't find an explanation for it. If it means getting the air temp sensor working, then I will get right on it
EDIT:
I just found this post on TGO:
People keep forgetting that a MAF car doesn't NEED to know the air temp (or air pressure change caused by elevation either)....the MAF Sensor detects this when it measures the air flow.... colder air, more cooling of the wire, more air flow reported to the ECM by the MAF (in simplistic terms).
if this is correct, making the temp sensor function will have no effect on my current situation :think:
HaulnA$$
04-11-2008, 12:02 AM
When you say "AFR's ....all over the place" do you mean +/- 1 AFR or do you mean +/- 5 AFR?
Mine are going nuts right now (will shoot way out of range)and I can't find an explanation for it. If it means getting the air temp sensor working, then I will get right on it
I'm talking +/- less than 1 AFR (like .3 or .4) and like +/- 5 BLM's or so.
EDIT:
I just found this post on TGO:
if this is correct, making the temp sensor function will have no effect on my current situation :think::dunno: I don't know why I keep forgetting that you're running a MAF setup. As far as fueling goes, that statement is correct for all intents and purposes. IAT/MAT correction is inherent to true speed density calculations but does not really apply to MAF fueling. This does'nt mean that you could'nt benefit from air tepmerature corrections to spark.
Mine are going nuts right now (will shoot way out of range)and I can't find an explanation for it. If it means getting the air temp sensor working, then I will get right on it
I'm talking +/- less than 1 AFR (like .3 or .4) and like +/- 5 BLM's or so.
EDIT:
I just found this post on TGO:
if this is correct, making the temp sensor function will have no effect on my current situation :think::dunno: I don't know why I keep forgetting that you're running a MAF setup. As far as fueling goes, that statement is correct for all intents and purposes. IAT/MAT correction is inherent to true speed density calculations but does not really apply to MAF fueling. This does'nt mean that you could'nt benefit from air tepmerature corrections to spark.
pfk
04-11-2008, 12:17 AM
I'm talking +/- less than 1 AFR (like .3 or .4) and like +/- 5 BLM's or so.
that's what I figured it should be, I'll go back to the drawing board.
:dunno: I don't know why I keep forgetting that you're running a MAF setup. As far as fueling goes, that statement is correct for all intents and purposes. IAT/MAT correction is inherent to true speed density calculations but does not really apply to MAF fueling. This does'nt mean that you could'nt benefit from air tepmerature corrections to spark.
I read that farther down in the thread, so I figure it will be on the to-do list,but I'll get it running first :D
Just setting up scannerpro with the new info for the sensors and hopefully I can get a decent histogram with it and see how that helps out.
that's what I figured it should be, I'll go back to the drawing board.
:dunno: I don't know why I keep forgetting that you're running a MAF setup. As far as fueling goes, that statement is correct for all intents and purposes. IAT/MAT correction is inherent to true speed density calculations but does not really apply to MAF fueling. This does'nt mean that you could'nt benefit from air tepmerature corrections to spark.
I read that farther down in the thread, so I figure it will be on the to-do list,but I'll get it running first :D
Just setting up scannerpro with the new info for the sensors and hopefully I can get a decent histogram with it and see how that helps out.
94Blazer383
04-11-2008, 04:54 AM
I mean crack it by making it more user-friendly on the xdf side of the house for the 7427. I haven't seen an xdf with any IAT stuff in it yet save one flag I think, which was AE MAT adjust or something like that. I guess I'm kinda spoiled by the EBL and the IAT/MAT stuff it has. I know building xdf's and dissecting code is tough, that's why I was being a little sarcastic.
Alright you bunch of fart knockers :aniteef: , I am going to give an xdf that I have added the MAT stuff to. You need to enable the 3 switches, MAT Sensor, MAT Low, and MAT high. I have also added 4 MAT tables. Use this at you own risk, I have not had time to add a MAT to my truck yet so I dont know anything else about it. The 4 tables I added are what I see necessary to tune with the MAT installed, there may be more to it but I don't think so. You guys should learn how to add tables and switches to you .xdf files. Its not that hard if you just take the time to figure it out. :cool:
Alright you bunch of fart knockers :aniteef: , I am going to give an xdf that I have added the MAT stuff to. You need to enable the 3 switches, MAT Sensor, MAT Low, and MAT high. I have also added 4 MAT tables. Use this at you own risk, I have not had time to add a MAT to my truck yet so I dont know anything else about it. The 4 tables I added are what I see necessary to tune with the MAT installed, there may be more to it but I don't think so. You guys should learn how to add tables and switches to you .xdf files. Its not that hard if you just take the time to figure it out. :cool:
Blue71
04-11-2008, 06:08 AM
Ha, adding tables is not a problem, It's understanding what they do.
Example: Bin BSWX (4.3 V6) with your adx file that you posted.
the titles to the tables are self explanitory,
% Mult/multiplier, this I don't understand please explain.
last table base mat spr adv corr vs vac & mat.
left hand column Temp, top Vac. I don't know about your vehicle mine, rarely see vac under 50 unless I'm going down hill.
see my confusion ?
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/93BlueZ71/MAT-1.jpg
Edit: forgot the Mat fuel correction table
Example: Bin BSWX (4.3 V6) with your adx file that you posted.
the titles to the tables are self explanitory,
% Mult/multiplier, this I don't understand please explain.
last table base mat spr adv corr vs vac & mat.
left hand column Temp, top Vac. I don't know about your vehicle mine, rarely see vac under 50 unless I'm going down hill.
see my confusion ?
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/93BlueZ71/MAT-1.jpg
Edit: forgot the Mat fuel correction table
94Blazer383
04-11-2008, 06:24 AM
Ha, adding tables is not a problem, It's understanding what they do.
Example: Bin BSWX (4.3 V6) with your adx file that you posted.
the titles to the tables are self explanitory,
% Mult/multiplier, this I don't understand please explain.
last table base mat spr adv corr vs vac & mat.
left hand column Temp, top Vac. I don't know about your vehicle mine, rarely see vac under 50 unless I'm going down hill.
see my confusion ?
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/93BlueZ71/MAT.jpg
Like I said, I havent had time to play.
I see MAP readings in the 45's.
Example: Bin BSWX (4.3 V6) with your adx file that you posted.
the titles to the tables are self explanitory,
% Mult/multiplier, this I don't understand please explain.
last table base mat spr adv corr vs vac & mat.
left hand column Temp, top Vac. I don't know about your vehicle mine, rarely see vac under 50 unless I'm going down hill.
see my confusion ?
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii254/93BlueZ71/MAT.jpg
Like I said, I havent had time to play.
I see MAP readings in the 45's.
oldred95
04-11-2008, 07:11 AM
Hmmm, and here I thought this thread was about IAT. :think:
I called it the wrong thing. I meant MAT not IAT.
FWIW the MAF adf has all the MAT tables and flags already in it. Just need some numbers to put in the tables...
I called it the wrong thing. I meant MAT not IAT.
FWIW the MAF adf has all the MAT tables and flags already in it. Just need some numbers to put in the tables...
91chevZ71
04-11-2008, 02:50 PM
Alright you bunch of fart knockers :aniteef: , I am going to give an xdf that I have added the MAT stuff to. You need to enable the 3 switches, MAT Sensor, MAT Low, and MAT high. I have also added 4 MAT tables. Use this at you own risk, I have not had time to add a MAT to my truck yet so I dont know anything else about it. The 4 tables I added are what I see necessary to tune with the MAT installed, there may be more to it but I don't think so. You guys should learn how to add tables and switches to you .xdf files. Its not that hard if you just take the time to figure it out. :cool:
SCORE!!!!!!!!!!
thanks Blazer!
SCORE!!!!!!!!!!
thanks Blazer!
HaulnA$$
04-11-2008, 06:36 PM
Alright you bunch of fart knockers :aniteef: , I am going to give an xdf that I have added the MAT stuff to. You need to enable the 3 switches, MAT Sensor, MAT Low, and MAT high. I have also added 4 MAT tables. Use this at you own risk, I have not had time to add a MAT to my truck yet so I dont know anything else about it. The 4 tables I added are what I see necessary to tune with the MAT installed, there may be more to it but I don't think so. You guys should learn how to add tables and switches to you .xdf files. Its not that hard if you just take the time to figure it out. :cool:What about the MAT fuel correction tables at $4AD9?
Blue71
04-11-2008, 07:44 PM
What about the MAT fuel correction tables at $4AD9?
Hauln,
He did have the table added.
The table at $4AD9, Is there any reason it would not be used
for a dry manifold as in MPFI?
Hauln,
He did have the table added.
The table at $4AD9, Is there any reason it would not be used
for a dry manifold as in MPFI?
HaulnA$$
04-11-2008, 08:18 PM
Hauln,
He did have the table added.
The table at $4AD9, Is there any reason it would not be used
for a dry manifold as in MPFI?Oops! I guess my dain bramage is flaring up. I'll have to get that looked at.
An air temp sensor of either flavor works beter on an MPFI setup. There are less variables involved in the tuning process. The fewer the variables, the easier the tune is to nail down. HTH
He did have the table added.
The table at $4AD9, Is there any reason it would not be used
for a dry manifold as in MPFI?Oops! I guess my dain bramage is flaring up. I'll have to get that looked at.
An air temp sensor of either flavor works beter on an MPFI setup. There are less variables involved in the tuning process. The fewer the variables, the easier the tune is to nail down. HTH
Blue71
04-12-2008, 11:07 AM
An air temp sensor of either flavor works beter on an MPFI setup. There are less variables involved in the tuning process. The fewer the variables, the easier the tune is to nail down. HTH
So, if I'm reading you correctly, for MPFI I don't
need the tables at $4AD9.
So, if I'm reading you correctly, for MPFI I don't
need the tables at $4AD9.
HaulnA$$
04-12-2008, 11:20 AM
So, if I'm reading you correctly, for MPFI I don't
need the tables at $4AD9.No, you do need those tables for an MPFI setup. Tuning those tables will compensate fueling for changes in air density. HTH
need the tables at $4AD9.No, you do need those tables for an MPFI setup. Tuning those tables will compensate fueling for changes in air density. HTH
Blue71
04-12-2008, 11:45 AM
No, you do need those tables for an MPFI setup. Tuning those tables will compensate fueling for changes in air density. HTH
Thank's HTH,
Didn't have $4AD9, had all the rest $4433,$4493,$44A4,$4B78, in my xdf.
I'll add it and start figuring out how to tune it.
Thank's HTH,
Didn't have $4AD9, had all the rest $4433,$4493,$44A4,$4B78, in my xdf.
I'll add it and start figuring out how to tune it.
Blue71
04-13-2008, 08:50 AM
Played around with this a little bit yesterday, just for the heck of it and to maybe help try to understand how its changes things, I loaded up the V6 tables to play around with, I now see how the Base Mat Spk Adv corr Vs vac & mat works, still trying to figure out pos/neg % mult.
91chevZ71
04-13-2008, 05:32 PM
"HTH" stands for 'hope this helps'. he he
Blue, what's your next plan for the 350HO? I'm gonna stroke mine (383) and go to 9.8 C/R and run the LT4 production cam. TBI, of course. port the vortecs all the way, this time, of course
I figure the porting will help the cam overcome the vortecs' exhaust woes
Blue, what's your next plan for the 350HO? I'm gonna stroke mine (383) and go to 9.8 C/R and run the LT4 production cam. TBI, of course. port the vortecs all the way, this time, of course
I figure the porting will help the cam overcome the vortecs' exhaust woes
oldred95
04-13-2008, 05:45 PM
"HTH" stands for 'hope this helps'.
No kiddin?
I had no idea what that meant.
No kiddin?
I had no idea what that meant.
91chevZ71
04-13-2008, 05:46 PM
No kiddin?
I had no idea what that meant.
blow me
it seemed like blue didn't read that right.
lol
I had no idea what that meant.
blow me
it seemed like blue didn't read that right.
lol
Blue71
04-14-2008, 08:57 PM
"HTH" stands for 'hope this helps'. he he
Dang thumbs, got in the way again, should have read HTB
Blue, what's your next plan for the 350HO? I'm gonna stroke mine (383) and go to 9.8 C/R and run the LT4 production cam. TBI, of course. port the vortecs all the way, this time, of course.
No plans, still trying to get this motor running the way I think it should.
I do have a 377 and a couple of 400 blocks setting in the corner though.
Heck if I feel the need to go faster I'll just jump in the Nova.:eek:
Dang thumbs, got in the way again, should have read HTB
Blue, what's your next plan for the 350HO? I'm gonna stroke mine (383) and go to 9.8 C/R and run the LT4 production cam. TBI, of course. port the vortecs all the way, this time, of course.
No plans, still trying to get this motor running the way I think it should.
I do have a 377 and a couple of 400 blocks setting in the corner though.
Heck if I feel the need to go faster I'll just jump in the Nova.:eek:
pfk
04-14-2008, 09:59 PM
Just so I am clear on what you guys are doing, you are using the input on pin b9 and mounting the sensor in the manifold runner?
The reason I ask is the $OD_MAF code has a listing for both an IAT and a Manifold plenum sensor and I am a little bit confused on how it uses the routines. It appears to me that the code uses the trans temp input for the manifold plenum sensor and would allow you to use 2 sensors if you would like. I have no idea how one would go about blending those sensors for any advantage so don't ask :D
The reason I ask is the $OD_MAF code has a listing for both an IAT and a Manifold plenum sensor and I am a little bit confused on how it uses the routines. It appears to me that the code uses the trans temp input for the manifold plenum sensor and would allow you to use 2 sensors if you would like. I have no idea how one would go about blending those sensors for any advantage so don't ask :D
Blue71
04-14-2008, 10:08 PM
Yes, input on B9, I think the TBI guys are putting it in the #8
intake runner, I'm running mine in the spacer ring above the TB.
intake runner, I'm running mine in the spacer ring above the TB.
pfk
04-17-2008, 12:12 AM
I got mine hooked up monday evening so it should be ready to play with. I was surprised to find that with a slight change in the ambient temp that there was a decent change in my AFR readings. (at least +/- .5) It was mostly going rich so I was still able to abuse it a little bit tonight. I think it may be related more to the fuel pressure regulator but since I didnt change a thing since monday night and my logs are showing differently I would have to assume that it is temp related.
anyways, here's a video that I've been promising 0-100 (http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z60/pfk_ca/?action=view¤t=MOV03180.flv)
I'm geared up to spend a decent amount of time on the tune on the weekend, hopefully all at once instead of an hour here and there. My goal is to get the base fueling finished with by the weekend.
anyways, here's a video that I've been promising 0-100 (http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z60/pfk_ca/?action=view¤t=MOV03180.flv)
I'm geared up to spend a decent amount of time on the tune on the weekend, hopefully all at once instead of an hour here and there. My goal is to get the base fueling finished with by the weekend.
91chevZ71
04-17-2008, 10:58 AM
nice. wish my truck was that fast
MSlewis
04-17-2008, 02:27 PM
As far as I know, you will probably find the 4.3 bins useless for this install and will have to come up with the blends yourselves. The various 4.3 versions are all IAT not MAT,(different acronym same principal) and all use MAF's and dry intakes. Also there are more than just the aforementioned tables to adjust, and you dont necassarily have to enable the error bits. I was working on it awhile back and like Haulin says,it appears it's not that difficult to implement but should be rather challenging on the tuning end. I was actually thinking of doing it this weekend and using my existing EGR solenoid wiring. I'll be honest though, I probably won't have time to get the tables down before I swap engines AGAIN!!!!
93V8S10
04-17-2008, 04:07 PM
anyways, here's a video that I've been promising 0-100 (http://s188.photobucket.com/albums/z60/pfk_ca/?action=view¤t=MOV03180.flv)
Dam*, 160 MPH cruise.:eek: :worship:
(edit) I realized that Pfk is in Canada and that his speedometer is in KPH. Still impressive though. His 4000+# Suburban may be faster than my 3200# S10.
Dam*, 160 MPH cruise.:eek: :worship:
(edit) I realized that Pfk is in Canada and that his speedometer is in KPH. Still impressive though. His 4000+# Suburban may be faster than my 3200# S10.
MSlewis
04-18-2008, 05:24 AM
:dunno: I don't know why I keep forgetting that you're running a MAF setup. As far as fueling goes, that statement is correct for all intents and purposes. IAT/MAT correction is inherent to true speed density calculations but does not really apply to MAF fueling. This does'nt mean that you could'nt benefit from air tepmerature corrections to spark.
Are you sure about that? I see vehicle's come in all the time running rich, with rich codes, and find out that the IAT sensor has been taken out by a suicide rock or road debris, usually with a reading of -40 degrees. I believe it has importance to fueling in a MAF setup, just not as important as in SD.
So Blue71, are you the only one thats running it with the STOCK PCM in SD mode??
Are you sure about that? I see vehicle's come in all the time running rich, with rich codes, and find out that the IAT sensor has been taken out by a suicide rock or road debris, usually with a reading of -40 degrees. I believe it has importance to fueling in a MAF setup, just not as important as in SD.
So Blue71, are you the only one thats running it with the STOCK PCM in SD mode??
Tbi-MAX
04-18-2008, 05:45 AM
im actually using the stock pcm and SD as well.. i just have to start entering data and get my harness. hopefully in another week or so.
PFK that 0-100 is sweet! makes me want to SC on my stroker.. hehe that lowend was awesome!
PFK that 0-100 is sweet! makes me want to SC on my stroker.. hehe that lowend was awesome!
Blue71
04-18-2008, 07:23 AM
So Blue71, are you the only one thats running it with the STOCK PCM in SD mode??
Stock PCM, No, modified for MPFI, SD mode yes.
I have been playing with IAT table settings, Still trying to get grasp on what they do and how it interacts with the fueling and timing.
At the rate I'm going, it will be a while.
Stock PCM, No, modified for MPFI, SD mode yes.
I have been playing with IAT table settings, Still trying to get grasp on what they do and how it interacts with the fueling and timing.
At the rate I'm going, it will be a while.
pfk
04-19-2008, 03:34 PM
Dam*, 160 MPH cruise.:eek: :worship:
(edit) I realized that Pfk is in Canada and that his speedometer is in KPH. Still impressive though. His 4000+# Suburban may be faster than my 3200# S10.
lol, I read your post the other day and I couldn't put my finger on what looked wrong :D I do have a log or 2 showing 115mph though :wink: I saw those results with my acceleration once I changed the shift points and most importantly in my case, the tcc settings. at wot my tcc is set to lock in 4th gear only, at 102mph. Now that I have a lot more high rpm power I have to check them out again to see if I have room for improvement.
To be 100% honest though, I have not verified the accuracy of my speedo since I did the DRAC mod last year. It does seem accurate with the flow of traffic so it shouldn't be too far off.
I hope to go for a 4 hour drive this summer and go to the track. I would like to get my first time slip ever (never been to a track in my life) and see how far off I am from my target of a 14 sec 1/4 mile. (I still don't know if that's a possibilty, but if I fail, oh well, it was fun trying :D )
(edit) I realized that Pfk is in Canada and that his speedometer is in KPH. Still impressive though. His 4000+# Suburban may be faster than my 3200# S10.
lol, I read your post the other day and I couldn't put my finger on what looked wrong :D I do have a log or 2 showing 115mph though :wink: I saw those results with my acceleration once I changed the shift points and most importantly in my case, the tcc settings. at wot my tcc is set to lock in 4th gear only, at 102mph. Now that I have a lot more high rpm power I have to check them out again to see if I have room for improvement.
To be 100% honest though, I have not verified the accuracy of my speedo since I did the DRAC mod last year. It does seem accurate with the flow of traffic so it shouldn't be too far off.
I hope to go for a 4 hour drive this summer and go to the track. I would like to get my first time slip ever (never been to a track in my life) and see how far off I am from my target of a 14 sec 1/4 mile. (I still don't know if that's a possibilty, but if I fail, oh well, it was fun trying :D )
pfk
04-19-2008, 03:45 PM
im actually using the stock pcm and SD as well.. i just have to start entering data and get my harness. hopefully in another week or so.
PFK that 0-100 is sweet! makes me want to SC on my stroker.. hehe that lowend was awesome!
Be careful what you wish for.... trying to tune this thing is a real pita. I think it would have been easier had I used a whipple instead of a blow through type since the pressures made by the S/C cause changes to the fuel pressure leaving the injectors.
I was wondering just last night what it would be like using an older carb whipple with an adapter plate on it (pfk dreaming again :D )
PFK that 0-100 is sweet! makes me want to SC on my stroker.. hehe that lowend was awesome!
Be careful what you wish for.... trying to tune this thing is a real pita. I think it would have been easier had I used a whipple instead of a blow through type since the pressures made by the S/C cause changes to the fuel pressure leaving the injectors.
I was wondering just last night what it would be like using an older carb whipple with an adapter plate on it (pfk dreaming again :D )
pfk
04-19-2008, 04:17 PM
Are you sure about that? I see vehicle's come in all the time running rich, with rich codes, and find out that the IAT sensor has been taken out by a suicide rock or road debris, usually with a reading of -40 degrees. I believe it has importance to fueling in a MAF setup, just not as important as in SD.
So Blue71, are you the only one thats running it with the STOCK PCM in SD mode??
The arguments do support that statement. I have my mat active now and it does seem to make a difference I just cant tell why though.
So Blue71, are you the only one thats running it with the STOCK PCM in SD mode??
The arguments do support that statement. I have my mat active now and it does seem to make a difference I just cant tell why though.
oldred95
04-19-2008, 05:55 PM
Well I finally got my new fuel pump put in and started datalogging again and to my surprise other then a code 25 MAT Too High code set it worked like a charm. The fuel trims were scarey accurate and only needed a slight tweak to the MAF flow table. Again this is based off a narrow band but still its a sign of progress. Who wants to sell me their wideband for cheap?
Blue71
04-19-2008, 08:53 PM
Dang, you guys have it controlling fuel changes via temp changes already. it must be easier with a MAF setup.
oldred95
04-19-2008, 09:39 PM
Dang, you guys have it controlling fuel changes via temp changes already. it must be easier with a MAF setup.
All I did was revert back to a known MAF table before my fuel pump went to hell and enabled the MAT sensor and went for a drive. After some self learning the INT never swung more then + or - 6 all through AE, DE and sustained speeds. For the most part it stayed right within + or - 2 of 128. The BLM went a little lean at low speeds and idle but the INT stayed right on target. Corrected the flow table for the lean BLM and haven't driven it yet but I think I'll be right back on target.
All I did was revert back to a known MAF table before my fuel pump went to hell and enabled the MAT sensor and went for a drive. After some self learning the INT never swung more then + or - 6 all through AE, DE and sustained speeds. For the most part it stayed right within + or - 2 of 128. The BLM went a little lean at low speeds and idle but the INT stayed right on target. Corrected the flow table for the lean BLM and haven't driven it yet but I think I'll be right back on target.
93V8S10
04-19-2008, 10:24 PM
I hope to go for a 4 hour drive this summer and go to the track. I would like to get my first time slip ever (never been to a track in my life) and see how far off I am from my target of a 14 sec 1/4 mile. (I still don't know if that's a possibilty, but if I fail, oh well, it was fun trying :D )
Having to drive 4 hours to get to a track sucks, but on the other hand, where I live, it's hard to find enough room on the street for a 0-100 MPH blast.
Jugging by the rate of acceleration in the video, I think you'll meet your goal. If you have trouble getting a good clean pass at the track, give me a holler, might be able to give some useful pointers. I run a lot on 1/8 mile tracks down here, well I used to before money and time became short.
Having to drive 4 hours to get to a track sucks, but on the other hand, where I live, it's hard to find enough room on the street for a 0-100 MPH blast.
Jugging by the rate of acceleration in the video, I think you'll meet your goal. If you have trouble getting a good clean pass at the track, give me a holler, might be able to give some useful pointers. I run a lot on 1/8 mile tracks down here, well I used to before money and time became short.
pfk
04-19-2008, 10:48 PM
Having to drive 4 hours to get to a track sucks, but on the other hand, where I live, it's hard to find enough room on the street for a 0-100 MPH blast.
Jugging by the rate of acceleration in the video, I think you'll meet your goal. If you have trouble getting a good clean pass at the track, give me a holler, might be able to give some useful pointers. I run a lot on 1/8 mile tracks down here, well I used to before money and time became short.
I was hoping that it could be true but I was able to collect some info from the video (stupid computer, I lost the log to that run :mad:), I started from a dead stop, only got a little bit of tire skip. My AFR is a little rich throughout the run.Near the end of the run I backed off on the throttle a little (I saw a car coming and I don't like to drive like an idiot around other people, plus I haven't had a ticket in approx 15 years and I'd like to keep it that way, at least for a little while :aniteef: ) after all that, I'm still running the stock timing curve (my tuning is progressing real slow :D ) the big but, the video is 24seconds long, almost exactly 0-100. Just about every 14 1/4 mile that I have seen a time slip for does the 1/4 in 14 sec with a trap speed of near 100. I've been using that as my baseline, when I can hit 100mph in 14 seconds, I can assume that I will hit a 14 second 1/4 mile.
Once I am ready to go, I'm sure I will be making may posts about my trip down south :rocking:
Jugging by the rate of acceleration in the video, I think you'll meet your goal. If you have trouble getting a good clean pass at the track, give me a holler, might be able to give some useful pointers. I run a lot on 1/8 mile tracks down here, well I used to before money and time became short.
I was hoping that it could be true but I was able to collect some info from the video (stupid computer, I lost the log to that run :mad:), I started from a dead stop, only got a little bit of tire skip. My AFR is a little rich throughout the run.Near the end of the run I backed off on the throttle a little (I saw a car coming and I don't like to drive like an idiot around other people, plus I haven't had a ticket in approx 15 years and I'd like to keep it that way, at least for a little while :aniteef: ) after all that, I'm still running the stock timing curve (my tuning is progressing real slow :D ) the big but, the video is 24seconds long, almost exactly 0-100. Just about every 14 1/4 mile that I have seen a time slip for does the 1/4 in 14 sec with a trap speed of near 100. I've been using that as my baseline, when I can hit 100mph in 14 seconds, I can assume that I will hit a 14 second 1/4 mile.
Once I am ready to go, I'm sure I will be making may posts about my trip down south :rocking:
93V8S10
04-20-2008, 10:06 AM
:jacked: You'll do better than you think.
http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic32728.htm
http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet-Suburban-Timeslip-8635.html
http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic32728.htm
http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet-Suburban-Timeslip-8635.html
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