NBS Big 3 upgrade

[RoLL1n D4rK]

Originally Posted by GM_NUT

. And I would agree that they are at the bottom of the list when putting it all together.

They are a crappy 'Band-Aid' solution for a daily use vehicle. If a cap actually solves a particular dimming problem, it's by accident, LMAO!

exactly

[created2destroy]

Originally Posted by GM_NUT

I have done this to every vehicle I have ever owned. I'm 46 and I've been the owner of plenty of vehicles. I have used both 4 and 0 gauge cable to do this work. I have never fused the charge wire ... ever. I have never had a 'shorting' problem. Ever. Run your cables correctly & safely and there will never be a problem...unless you are unlucky enough to have a devestating collision. If that happens, you will have other things to worry about. If you are still concerned, keep your fire extinguisher handy. Ya'all DO carry one in your truck ... right?
rig. ;)

Most people will never have to worry about it, but there is a chance of a short. It would most likely be caused by someone accidentally shorting the alternator to a ground. Depending on the conductor you may be able to quickly pull away, but what if its a wrench that gets so hot it welds itself to the alternator. At this point the power wire will melt or worse the battery will explode or atleast catch fire. I know its a far shot, but I would rather be safe.

I do no carry a fire extinguisher. If my truck catches fire and I cannot put it out it might as well keep burning. Thats what insurance is for.

[GM_NUT]

Originally Posted by created2destroy

Most people will never have to worry about it, but there is a chance of a short. It would most likely be caused by someone accidentally shorting the alternator to a ground. Depending on the conductor you may be able to quickly pull away, but what if its a wrench that gets so hot it welds itself to the alternator. At this point the power wire will melt or worse the battery will explode or atleast catch fire. I know its a far shot, but I would rather be safe.

I do no carry a fire extinguisher. If my truck catches fire and I cannot put it out it might as well keep burning. Thats what insurance is for.

Prior to performing any wrenching on the alternator or starter motor or solenoid - or just about anything on a truck, for that matter - the tech should be disconnecting the Neg(-) battery post. If that simple precaution is taken, a short like the one you describe will not be possible. Ever. Disconnecting the Neg(-) post is a simple precaution.

The entire purpose of "Doing the Big Three" is to improve the current path. Putting a big fuse in the 'charge' path will make things marginally 'safer', but the fuse and the associated connections will also reduce the current carrying capability of the 'charge ' cable - negating some of the current capacity.

Carrying an extinguisher certainly makes putting out a fire pretty easy. Why would you allow your truck to burn when a fire extinguisher is such cheap insurance? That's

I learned the hard way with my '70. Just after buying it I had a carburetor fire. I did not have an extinguisher in the truck yet - but luckily I was at home and had another extinguisher handy. If I had allowed the truck to burn, a classic Chevy would be gone.

[EvlTwin]

Originally Posted by GM_NUT

Caps actually do have their place in SPL rigs...but that's about it. And I would agree that they are at the bottom of the list when putting it all together.

They are a crappy 'Band-Aid' solution for a daily use vehicle. If a cap actually solves a particular dimming problem, it's by accident, LMAO!

The thing here is that caps actually do help with dimming when the dimming is caused by the stereo. When the stereo hits hard it will pull off the cap instead of the battery, thus allowing the rest of the vehicles electrical to run off the battery as normal. As a rule you should use 1 farad for every 1000 watts of power, or .5 farads for 500 watts.

But all of this is irrelivant in relation to the original thread which is the "BIG 3". The extra grounding wires simply help even out and distribute electrical current in the vehicle allowing all electrical components to operate more efficiently.

[GM_NUT]

Originally Posted by EvlTwin

The thing here is that caps actually do help with dimming when the dimming is caused by the stereo.

The cap is masking the problem with the charging system, not fixing it.

Do 'The Big Three' and then get a better battery and possibly a better alternator.

[created2destroy]

Originally Posted by GM_NUT

Prior to performing any wrenching on the alternator or starter motor or solenoid - or just about anything on a truck, for that matter - the tech should be disconnecting the Neg(-) battery post. If that simple precaution is taken, a short like the one you describe will not be possible. Ever. Disconnecting the Neg(-) post is a simple precaution.

The entire purpose of "Doing the Big Three" is to improve the current path. Putting a big fuse in the 'charge' path will make things marginally 'safer', but the fuse and the associated connections will also reduce the current carrying capability of the 'charge ' cable - negating some of the current capacity.

Carrying an extinguisher certainly makes putting out a fire pretty easy. Why would you allow your truck to burn when a fire extinguisher is such cheap insurance? That's

I learned the hard way with my '70. Just after buying it I had a carburetor fire. I did not have an extinguisher in the truck yet - but luckily I was at home and had another extinguisher handy. If I had allowed the truck to burn, a classic Chevy would be gone.

I always disconnect my ground when working anything electrical in my truck, but accidents do happen. I'd rather be safe than sorry. If your that concerned about a fuse causing resistance you should do some research. Lets assume that the conductor in the fuse is the equivalent to a 20awg wire(actual 200amp fuse should be much bigger). A 20awg wire has a resistance of around 10ohms per 1000'. so if the conductor is 1" long it has a resistance of 8.33*10^4 ohms. That is a very high estimate.

The best way to deal with a fire is to prevent it in the first place. If theres going to be a fire in my truck it will be from faulty gm wiring, and thats where lawsuits form. I agree I wouldn't want to lose a classic truck, but mine can be replaced.

[bonedust]

Originally Posted by EvlTwin

4. Bigger pipes flow more water. Same thing with power. The bigger the wire the better, until you reach the point of over-kill, like 1/0 on that power seat wire.

i agree totally, but what the car audio world has done is fill itself full of bottle necks in power systems. sure, 1/0 flows a ton of power, but when you take that currant flow and stuff it thru this:



...everything past the fuse may as well be 8ga. the car audio circuit breakers are even worse! im not saying i have a solution, because things need to be fused IMO. we've done a ton of bench testing of wire over the years, and we worked out alot of the bottle necking in the home audio world.

[created2destroy]

You guys do realize that resistance is proportional to length of a conductor. Fuses cause very little resistance because they are very short. If there was a overload of power going through a fuse it would melt.

Also bigger pipes do not flow more water. A smaller pipe would just require more pressure to get the same amount of water.

[EvlTwin]

Originally Posted by GM_NUT

The cap is masking the problem with the charging system, not fixing it.

Do 'The Big Three' and then get a better battery and possibly a better alternator.

i didnt say caps fix. i said they help. but yes you are correct. a new battery and stronger altenator with the right cables would fix the problem. but seeing as how tens of thousands or more caps are sold every year to both private and competition system owners all over the world, i would hardly call it a "mask". surely they created these large C battery looking things for a purpose.

[EvlTwin]

Originally Posted by created2destroy

You guys do realize that resistance is proportional to length of a conductor. Fuses cause very little resistance because they are very short. If there was a overload of power going through a fuse it would melt.

Also bigger pipes do not flow more water. A smaller pipe would just require more pressure to get the same amount of water.

wow. that has to be one of the most assign statements. bigger doesnt flow more, just use more pressure. well, yeah your right. you could still use more pressure but that defeats the purpose of releaving the restriction in the first place. oh yeah and with electricity your working with current draw not pressure. so for you that would be like sucking through a straw not blowing through it. which would siffen a gas tank faster? a 1/4 tube or a garden hose? the garden hose of course. cant put more pressure on it though can you. no. use bigger tube to get more draw, use bigger wire, get more current flow.

[created2destroy]

Originally Posted by EvlTwin

wow. that has to be one of the most assign statements. bigger doesnt flow more, just use more pressure. well, yeah your right. you could still use more pressure but that defeats the purpose of releaving the restriction in the first place. oh yeah and with electricity your working with current draw not pressure. so for you that would be like sucking through a straw not blowing through it. which would siffen a gas tank faster? a 1/4 tube or a garden hose? the garden hose of course. cant put more pressure on it though can you. no. use bigger tube to get more draw, use bigger wire, get more current flow.

I was just stating that just because a pipe is smaller doesn't mean it can't flow as much, just takes more pressure. I realize that if pressure is not a variable then yes a bigger pipe flows more. This has nothing to do with what we are talking about and is off topic.

I said nothing about using smaller wire, I was just stating that using a fuse will have a very very small resistance.

You are incorrect, we are talking about pressure. Electrical pressure is called voltage. The problem you are having when lights dim is caused by a voltage drop. If you don't believe me watch your voltage gauge. Now lets think about a fuse as a restrictive tube. 12volts(actually around 14) is how much pressure is constantly in the tube. If the fuse is rated at 200amps this is like the amount of water that can flow through a tube at 12volts. Any more flow or pressure will burst the tube, or melt the fuse.

With electricity any energy that is lost due to resistance is transformed into heat. Yes a fuse will have some resistance and put out some heat, but since its so small there will be very little heat.

I have an experiment for you similar to your gas sucking ways. Find a long piece of tubing, preferably something very small(<1/4"). Cut two pieces, one about 1/2" long and the other several feet. Try to blow through both of them. Which one is easier to blow through?

[EvlTwin]

we'll continue this discussion via pm

[tex2500]

Would using an automotive type circuit breaker (say rated for 150amps) between the battery and alternator solve the safety issue? As long as your alternator makes less that 150 amps you should be fine right. I guess all you would need is a warning indicator to let you know if the breaker trips, would the breaker add as much resistance as a 150amp AFS fuse?

[created2destroy]

Originally Posted by tex2500

Would using an automotive type circuit breaker (say rated for 150amps) between the battery and alternator solve the safety issue? As long as your alternator makes less that 150 amps you should be fine right. I guess all you would need is a warning indicator to let you know if the breaker trips, would the breaker add as much resistance as a 150amp AFS fuse?

I would imagine there might be more resistance, but I'm not sure. Either way there is so little resistance that it shouldn't matter. For anyone that is concerned about resistance of a fuse or breaker, I suggest you contact one of the many manufactures and ask them. They should be a valid source, and should be able to tell you an exact value.

Also, If you use a breaker there shouldn't be a need to an indicator. If there is a problem I imagine the battery would die in a few minutes.

[GM_NUT]

Originally Posted by created2destroy

I would imagine there might be more resistance, but I'm not sure. Either way there is so little resistance that it shouldn't matter. For anyone that is concerned about resistance of a fuse or breaker, I suggest you contact one of the many manufactures and ask them. They should be a valid source, and should be able to tell you an exact value.

Also, If you use a breaker there shouldn't be a need to an indicator. If there is a problem I imagine the battery would die in a few minutes.

No, the battery would not 'die'. The factory charge wire (which should still be in place!) would just keep doing its thing - charging the battery.

It's clear that some of you fellas are not fully comprehending how to perform this modification. The factory charge wire stays in place, doing it's job just like the engineers at GM originally intended.

My daily driver is an old 1990 Caprice these days. I will take a few photographs of the "Big Three" install I did in this car and post them in this thread (hey, it's a 'Full Size' lol). Maybe that will help some of you 'get it'. It really is simple - and worth the effort.

About capacitor use in competition vehicles ... they are used because they are capable of discharging more rapidly than a battery. That capability provides the amplification system with a little extra current when needed - like when a strong bass note 'hits'.

The average Joe buys and installs a cap with his 500 watt system because he is simply trying to copy what the pro's are doing. Joe would be better off buying a better battery and alternator ... but those mods cost more than a cap, so he goes for the cap instead.

[94FlamdS10Blazr]

usually they are doing the cap cuz either some sales person doesnt know what the customer actually needs and just throws them a cap as a bandaid or they know that they wont actually fix their problem and just wanna make a quick buck and get those things out the stock room knowing that more knowledgeable folks wont get them!
I once had a kid come in asking for a cap, I tried to school him. He threatened to go tell my manager on me and how I didnt know crap, so I sold it to him with a cap install kit. 1 week later, he came back for another cap and another kit. One week later he came in for knowledge, it was great, but he wouldnt talk to me.....

[created2destroy]

Originally Posted by GM_NUT

No, the battery would not 'die'. The factory charge wire (which should still be in place!) would just keep doing its thing - charging the battery.

It's clear that some of you fellas are not fully comprehending how to perform this modification. The factory charge wire stays in place, doing it's job just like the engineers at GM originally intended.

My daily driver is an old 1990 Caprice these days. I will take a few photographs of the "Big Three" install I did in this car and post them in this thread (hey, it's a 'Full Size' lol). Maybe that will help some of you 'get it'. It really is simple - and worth the effort.

About capacitor use in competition vehicles ... they are used because they are capable of discharging more rapidly than a battery. That capability provides the amplification system with a little extra current when needed - like when a strong bass note 'hits'.

The average Joe buys and installs a cap with his 500 watt system because he is simply trying to copy what the pro's are doing. Joe would be better off buying a better battery and alternator ... but those mods cost more than a cap, so he goes for the cap instead.

Well if you were to do this correctly with a new fuse you should not keep the factory wire. Lets assume the factory link will melt at 200amps(should be higher) and you run a second wire with a fuse/breaker able to handle 200amps. This would allow 400amps to flow to the battery in the event of a short. If that's the route you want to go then why even use a fuse? Plus I'm sure over 400amps would melt the stock link so yes the battery would die and most likely the truck would lose all power.

It's clear that some of you fellas are not fully comprehending how electricity works.

[GM_NUT]

No, you're wrong, Eric.

You MUST leave the factory charge wire in place. In most vehicles it does not run straight to the positive battery post. It provides power to other circuits along the way to the pos post.

Have you ever performed this mod?

[GM_NUT]

Originally Posted by 94FlamdS10Blazr

usually they are doing the cap cuz either some sales person doesnt know what the customer actually needs and just throws them a cap as a bandaid or they know that they wont actually fix their problem and just wanna make a quick buck and get those things out the stock room knowing that more knowledgeable folks wont get them!
I once had a kid come in asking for a cap, I tried to school him. He threatened to go tell my manager on me and how I didnt know crap, so I sold it to him with a cap install kit. 1 week later, he came back for another cap and another kit. One week later he came in for knowledge, it was great, but he wouldnt talk to me.....

Yep, I agree - crappy sales guys are also to blame. I've ticked off plenty of sale guys by telling a customer to stay away from capacitors. I tell the customer to let me do "The Big Three" first. Sometimes they go for it ... but some are just hard-headed, like the guy you mentioned, LOL.

[created2destroy]

Originally Posted by GM_NUT

No, you're wrong, Eric.

You MUST leave the factory charge wire in place. In most vehicles it does not run straight to the positive battery post. It provides power to other circuits along the way to the pos post.

Have you ever performed this mod?

No, you're wrong NUT. I really think you should remove the 12volt pro title, it is very misleading.

I only ran a wire from the link to the alternator. The wire up to the link appears to be 4gauge. Why would you have to leave it in place? A wire runs from the battery to the components of the truck. There is simply a wire spliced in that runs to the alternator. All you would have to do is take out the wire to the alternator and run one directly from the battery with a fuse. This is the safest and best way to go about it.

This will be my last post in this thread. I think it is pathetic how many people want to argue over something they know nothing about. I was only giving advise because some people were concerned about their safety.