test drive with the new cam

[Fast305]

I hate to say it, but here comes the Desktop Dyno 2000 #s. I have gathered from other post that you have duals, stock manifolds, open element, ultimate TBI mods, TBI spacer, a Comp XE249H, and a chip that supposidly matches.

RPM------HP------TQ
2000-----137-----360
2500-----171-----360
3000-----205-----358
3500-----224-----336
4000-----230-----302
4500-----220-----257
5000-----196-----206
5500-----164-----157

The cams power band is 1,000-5,000 so that is right on track with a little HIGH RPM fall-off. This is due to the cast iron manifolds.

[Boosted-Z71]

Typical TBI torque, 2000 - 3500 almost 350 ft/lb across that rpm range. Not bad at all for a FI unit that spits fuel & heads that are "very restrictive". Keep working on your tune, your on the right track, the torque will really help you with the 32's. Just remeber this motor is not going to like 5K at all, gear accordingly if you change.

Boosted

['95-Silverado]

Sounds like you made some real progress Kurt.

I just have to ask you one question. Do you really feel comfortable pushing your truck during the test drive? I find myself wanting to push WOT, but I let off because I "feel sorry" for my engine. I know it sounds strange but the thing is 11 years old, with 150 grand on the clock... Im afraid to push it untill I regasket er all up. Don't want to blow a head gasket on the highway, that's for sure.

I was just curious if Im the only one that does that? Probably doesnt make since, but I want my baby to last as long as possible on the stock motor.


Congrats on the install. Keep goin with 'er.

[oldred95]

Updates:

I turned the fuel up to 14 psi. Left timing at 4 advanced cause I'm used to running 6+ advance with the old cam. I poured the chevron techron in to make a pretty rich batch and it pinged more then I liked. Fighting the wind and pulling hills it was pretty bad, good power but pinged bad. So I filled up with 91 octane and it helped some but its still pinging. I've got a few loose valves again so I gotta readjust those tomorrow yet again. I'm going to set the base timing to 0 and go from there.

My feelings about the whole deal is I know it will work eventually but I really didn't expect it to act like this. Yea it runs noticably better but not like I thought it would. What pisses me off the most is I have all the stuff to do my own datalogging but I have to use a USB to serial adapter cause my laptop has a bumb serial port and there are no datalogging softwares that I know of that will work with this setup. Datamasters 3.5 is supposed to work with this setup but they never have released it for trial downloading yet. Badburban told me he would do a few reburns for no additional charge to get things dialed in but I really don't know how to describe what its doing. There just isn't near the power there should be. It feels like I just stuck a chip in and the new cam is non existant.

Fast305, I've got hedman long tubes.

Boosted, I know everyone keeps saying 5000 rpms is not a good spot for a TBI but I feel it can rev that high and still pull decently. Thing is I don't even know if its shifting at 5000 WOT or not. My tach is off some but its showing about 4500 when it comes out of 2nd at 78 mph. I don't know, there's just so much chit that needs tweaked and its about impossible to know where to start. And without it being geared right I'll never know if anything I'm doing is going to help or not.

[oldred95]

I just checked on www.ttspowersystems.com and they finally have datamasters version 3.5 available for complete installation. Its downloading as we speak. Hopefully I can get things rigged up and get some datalogging done tomorrow or sometime soon. But I know I must readjust the valves tomorrow and get that timing back to 0 or this thing is gonna ping itself to death. Thanks for the tips guys. This 17 year old is gettin pretty discouraged cause his pride and joy isn't running right. But you guys keep giving me hope and new things to try and I appreciate that.

[91_bowtie]

The reason you had it set at 6* advance with the old cam is because there was so much slack in the old chain.

There is no reason for you to be revving that thing to 5000. You're asking for trouble.

Have you pulled the plugs after your test drive?

I never replied to your other thread about racing it because you said that you were going to gain 80hp from this cam swap. You should be EXTREMELY happy if you gain half of that after Josh has the tuning dialed in perfect. I don't care what dyno chart you saw, there is no way that anyone picked up 80hp from nothing more than a cam swap on a tbi. Not a chance.

EDIT....

Congrats on the swap. Other than turning a 5 hour job into a 5 day endurance event, it sounds like it went pretty well.

[Fast305]

Originally Posted by 91_bowtie

I never replied to your other thread about racing it because you said that you were going to gain 80hp from this cam swap. You should be EXTREMELY happy if you gain half of that after Josh has the tuning dialed in perfect. I don't care what dyno chart you saw, there is no way that anyone picked up 80hp from nothing more than a cam swap on a tbi. Not a chance.

Depends on the cam and the other bolt-ons. Cam only I say no. With a full exhaust system, Projection or Edelbrock intake, Ultimate TBI mods, Intake mods, a cam, and A PROPER chip you can get 80 FWHP over stock. Maybe not with that cam, but with a GREAT cam you can. My little brothers 1995 Tahoe was making 255 RWHP @ 5,000 and 325 ft/lbs @ 3,500 on untouched 193 heads (if you don't count cutting down the guides for retainer clearance) and cast iron manifolds. That is about 80 RWHP more than stock. The secret is a great cam and lots of tuning. In fact I am about to ditch my L82 cam for the same cam. Its a Crane Roller with a powerband of 1,800-5,800 on a 112* lobe center. Since then we have swapped my ported 193s from my G20 onto it. It will idle smoothly with 17 in/hg on the vacuum gauge and the torque comes on abruptly but smoothly. More than 1/4 throttle in 1st gear will tear the tires to shreds and that is with a 3.42 gear and sticky P275/60/R17s.

Keep in mind this is a fresh GM Crate 350 TBI that was cammed from the begining, has a Holley Projection intake, 454 TBI assembly, 454 injectors, L69 Dual Snorkel w/ Cold Air Induction, AFPR, TBI Spacer, High Flow cat, Flowmaster 70 Series Big Block muffler, Cat-Back duals, and that Crane Cam. The stock GM 193 heads were cut for valve lift ONLY and milled for flatness. The block was decked and blueprinted. The stock rotating assembly was balanced. Probably most important is that the Chip is darn near perfect. It also has a fresh 4L60E with a 2,800 Stall in it. Thist truck flat gets it.

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=brows...tType=camshaft

EDIT-Just talked to my brother and the Engine Dyno was 314 FWHP @ 5,300 and 378 ft/lbs @ 3,400. The pull started at 1,800 where it was showing 330 ft/lbs. Torque was over 330 ft/lbs from 1,800 to 5,000 rpm. 330 ft/lbs is what a Vortec 350 and some 5.3s put out at peak. At 3,000 rpm it is making 370 ft/lbs. No wonder it launches the way it does when you bring it up on the converter. At 6,000 it is still hanging onto 290 FWHP. We don't have dyno #s from the ported 193 head swap, but I have a feeling it is ATLEAST 30 HP more.

[91_bowtie]

Originally Posted by Fast305

EDIT-Just talked to my brother and the Engine Dyno was 314 FWHP @ 5,300 and 378 ft/lbs @ 3,400. The pull started at 1,800 where it was showing 330 ft/lbs. Torque was over 330 ft/lbs from 1,800 to 5,000 rpm. 330 ft/lbs is what a Vortec 350 and some 5.3s put out at peak. At 3,000 rpm it is making 370 ft/lbs. No wonder it launches the way it does when you bring it up on the converter. At 6,000 it is still hanging onto 290 FWHP. We don't have dyno #s from the ported 193 head swap, but I have a feeling it is ATLEAST 30 HP more.

I don't want to hijack his thread, but when your brothers motor was on a dyno was it being fed through a tbi? I doubt you would have seen those numbers if it was.

6000rpm what all did you do to those heads?!

[Fast305]

Originally Posted by 91_bowtie

I don't want to hijack his thread, but when your brothers motor was on a dyno was it being fed through a tbi? I doubt you would have seen those numbers if it was.

6000rpm what all did you do to those heads?!

Yep a 454 TBI to be exact, complete with 80 lb/hr 454 injectors at 15 psi. The engine was being run with a Hacked/Chipped 1992 299 ECM and an Extra Van TBI harness I had laying around. We basically converted the Harness to stand-alone(Very Easy with a van harness). The engine had NO accessories on it when dyno'd. The water pump was merely installed for water to be pumped through. In short it was run on the dyno with cast iron exhaust manifolds, a 454 TBI, 454 injectors, and a Holley Projection Intake.

Total timing was 28* BTDC @ 2,800 RPM and 16* initial with an A/F mixture holding at roughly 12.7:1 all through the pulls. At 6,100 RPM the injectors went STATIC. More fuel pressure would have easily eliminated this problem. But our max intended RPM was 5,800 anyway.

The heads were stock other than the valve guides being cut down, the crane springs installed, and milled to make sure everything is true. The ports, valves, etc were all untouched.


A stock F-Body LT1 cam will pull OK to 5,500 with stock swirl ports, enough fuel, and a decent tune.

On the other hand I feel that my DD2000 number are a good representation of what he will get from his engine. That cam is tiny compared to the ones I use.

[oldred95]

I was just going by this post and then you figure in the parasitic power loss from the drivetrain and what not and in theory that gives you such a big gain in power.

http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forums/...00&postcount=7

[badburban]

A really good combo for someone not into doing head porting and other heavy work and just wants to slap a cam into a rebuilt motor is a GMPP ramjet/383 cam into a caprice crate motor. The whole reason this combo performs is the 109 LSA. Too many people beleive what the cam companies sell but 90% of all LSA's are way too wide. Id rather see it on a 108 for a 350 is I was having a cam ground but 109 is very close and hte cam is cheap ($140 I think). Its only 19x/20x as I recal but Ive helped a guy with this swap and tuned it and what a screamer considering all it is. Know Ill admit this was in a reg cab long bed with a 5sp. Power band is strong from idle to over 5k. I was amazed it still pulled good at 5k. For a few examples of what this combo has done.

Hes raced his buddies new hemi ram and it was even a race. He pulled on the ram so bad it couldnt be considered a race.

Pulling his 24 ft travel trailer with some wet pavement and light throttle he has problems breaking the tires loose even when shifting into 2nd at really low speeds.

1-2-3 rubber without trying (he'd try for more but I told him I wasnt going to go pick the 5 sp up off the ground and it spewed out).

Ive got a nicely ported sets of 193's Id love to stick on there but thats ok Im buildnig my own super budget 350 with my own custom cam. Should prove to be a fun little combo. Remeber guys LSA is everything. I wouldnt ever stick anything larger then 110 LSA in a 350 preferably 108. And as displacement increases the LSA's decrease.

[oldred95]

So your saying my cam was a waste of time because the LSA is too wide? Actually I know you told me that but this was after you had ordered it. The reason for the 112 is tunability, I think. It should be easier to mail order tune it then a tighter more sensative LSA shouldn't it? Well anyway I think once I get it all working together well it will run good.

[no2guncntrl]

Maybe down the road you'll be able to come up with a
set of Vortec heads, port & polish em and install. I think
you'd see a good amount of difference.

[Timber]

Good job, really. Get the gears in before you get a tune. Then make sure your TBI is delivering enough fuel, if not upgrade as necessary. Then get a tune for everything that has been changed. I'd bet it'd give you the change you were expecting.

[oldred95]

Originally Posted by Timber

Good job, really. Get the gears in before you get a tune. Then make sure your TBI is delivering enough fuel, if not upgrade as necessary. Then get a tune for everything that has been changed. I'd bet it'd give you the change you were expecting.

I talked to badburban and he said that all the fueling and everything should be taken care of with the chip. He actually recommended lowering the fuel pressure to around 12 psi. He even said less fuel in the mix will decrease pinging because lean mixtures are harder to burn then rich mixes.

I readjusted the valves and set the timing to 0 and it helped. Got the lowend snap back which considering the gearing is amazing. It has decent power now. Pulls harder then stock of course. I think the gears are gonna be what makes or breaks this setup.

[badburban]

oldred

As for the cam specs I was merely commenting on some of the other guys discussions. I know a lot of people will probably read this just wanted to put some info out there for food for thought for others.

Once you get the new gears in I think you will be much happier.

Now If you really want to do something with heads I wouldnt waste my time on vortecs. Just way too much money. For a little ole budget based tbi motor Id much rather just put on a set of ported 193's (flow numbers can be quite impressive beating out ported 083's and stock vortecs).

Josh

[MSF]

Oldred, I recently rebuilt my motor & put in a Comp 12-249-4. Gotta love the lope at idle, and how it screams through the powerband. Besides some long tube headers, a hot coil, a Hypertech chip (I have always run 87 octane no problems), and the cam, it's pretty much stock & it runs excellent with the timing set at 0*. Sounds like you have a similar setup. A chip wouldn't hurt, but gearing is going to be key for you. I went from 3.42 to 4.10 before I tore down the motor & it made a huge difference right away.

[oldred95]

josh, the heads are gonna stay, I'm not going that deep into it.


MSF, I don't really hear much of a lope. Can you describe how yours sounds or whats your exhaust setup? I think the gears are going to do more then even I can imagine. Even if my engine is making more power, the 3.08s are putting the breaks on it and only allowing it to put out so much power. There will be another thread when I get the gears.

[s10er8]

Originally Posted by oldred95

He actually recommended lowering the fuel pressure to around 12 psi. He even said less fuel in the mix will decrease pinging because lean mixtures are harder to burn then rich mixes.

less fuel=lean

I read through this whole thing, is this a roller cam? If not did you break the cam in?

Also taking the tbi off and replacing it with a holley would have added a lot more power and been easier than a cam swap...or you could have done the cam swap and a holley

if you want to argue about tbi vs holley how many tbi's do you see on race cars

I love the tbi, its a real simple system and easy to work on, but it's not for performance

[bretsk2500]

Originally Posted by s10er8

if you want to argue about tbi vs holley how many tbi's do you see on race cars

There are very few classes in racing of any type that allow electronic fuel injection. a TBI motor is what it is.. stone axe reliable with good torque. i'd rather have my TBI motor over a carb'd one any day. -15F start's aren't a carb's strong suit. besides if he's got emmisions or safety inspections he couldn't go carburated and still pass.