96-99 454 Vortec owners?

[N0DIH]

I just got this from Gordon at witchhunter.com

http://www.lindertech.com/dirty_dzn.htm

Good list... Unfortunately, our L29's are on it...

From: WitchHunter Performance [mailto:info@witchhunter.com]
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 2:07 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Leaking injectors?

Most all the time leakers can be fixed but those injectors are a different story. We have seen 8 out of 8 leak and cleaning won't solve the issue. It is due to some defect in those used in the 96 to 01 454's. Even the spray patterns look crooked on the bad ones. Something must be coming loose inside the injector.

Here's a link that talks about it http://www.lindertech.com/dirty_dzn.htm

I advise that you replace them all. Lindertech, I think sells some Bosch replacements. There are other places, but...

Gordon

WitchHunter Performance / InjectorServices

206-919-0794

[bankspowered98]

Any idea on how much these replacement injectors are? I know it says $200.00 for a set, but how many are in a set? 2, 8, 16?

[N0DIH]

I have bought some from fiveomotorsports hat are takeouts that worked great and were good price. I would expect $200 a set.

For the adventurous types, a set of LT1 injectors or LS6 injectors, or even LS1 injectors and the PCM tuned to work with them would be an excellent low cost solution for good injectors.

I have LS6 injectors in my LT1 now and have my LT1 injectors that I might put in my L29.... But you MUST do PCM tuning to make it work properly. Else it will run poorly.

Larger injectors don't mean more power, it will screw up the computer because it won't be able to manage it well, especially at low pulsewidths. The PCM will toss in some corrections, but the low PW's are tough to do, and with the proper tuner can set in all the injector characteristics too. Which gives it the OEM touch....

Check ebay, the LS1 injectors (up to 2000) I believe are a bolt in with NO tuning needed. 2001-up got LS6 injectors and are larger and require tuning. The smaller body size still fits fine in place of the larger fat body injectors, they have smaller mass, so they are better at low pulse widths and are very fast acting.

I need to double check my math, but these I believe are correct ones...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/26lb-...spagenameZWDVW

Just remember, LS1's report the fuel flow at 4 bar like our 454's
Most injectors are listed as flow rate @ 3 bar. Which brings in a lot of confusion. I know, I got a set of LS6 injectors that were reported to be 28 lb/hr, and I adjusted my PCM for it and it ran like crap. I was all messed up, come to find out, that was 28 lb/hr @ 4 bar, my car ran 24.87 @ 3 bar, which is exactly what these ran at.... I went back to stock injector settings and it ran fine...

So the stock L29 injector is roughly a 19 lb/hr injector. @ 3 bar, @ 4 bar it is around 22.5 lb/hr.
The LS1 injector is 26 lb/hr @ 4 bar, so at 3 bar, it is 22.5 lb/hr.

But all 01-up LS1's got LS6 injectors which were 28.x lb/ht@4bar, so that is 24 lb/hr @ 3bar. All rounded as improperly as I can....

So if you are careful, you can find all sorts of injectors that work fine in our rides without PCM tuning... And more with PCM tuning.... If you are going MORE than 300 hp, I would recommend larger injectors. GM cut this engine to the bare minimum in fuel delivery. so you boys and girls tossing in cams and tunes and high flow exhausts/intakes, likely make a tad more than 300 hp.... For an engine that 500 hp is easy, don't cut injectors short... needing much larger is likely a realty now sooner than later...
But larger ALWAYS requires tuning of the PCM.

[skills4lou]

I bought a set from FiveoMotorsports about 2 yrs ago. ~$300. Cured my warm start issues. I checked the FPR before doing it, and was running in spec. (Can't remember off the top of my head what the spec was). The Bosch where a direct replacement, and have a better nozzle pattern. No problems since.
How long did it take you for the FPR replace?

BTW, a set is 8

[bankspowered98]

So any thoughts on which injectors I can go with since I am bolting on the SC tomorrow? I might need to step up. However, I want some that I can just pop in that deliver a shade bit more fuel without needing a PCM tune. I will have to take it somewhere for it to be tuned. Mail Orders cant do it.

[N0DIH]

It took me probably 3 hours, but it was cold and doing it on a snow covered driveway and finishing when it was dark. Not terribly hard, the only struggle was getting the FPR snap ring back in and finding it when it snapped and went back by the trans.... That added a lot time...

I'll get me some LS1 or my LT1 injectors and put in and readjust PCM to accept the larger injectors, then I can run E85 better....Or at least get more power out of it if I get a larger cam and better exhaust in there.

Remove vapor canister valve, EGR valve, EGR pipe, throttle cables (and move out of the way), wiring/connectors, leave coil in place, unplug front left plug wire into the cap, remove intake bolts, remove intake.

Be very aware a lot of the wiring harness loom on mine was cracking and falling off, so make sure it doesn't enter the engine. At least the 454 has nice large intake ports to reach in and inspect or to pull it back out....

If you did injectors, you know how, the FPR is right there in the back.

How hard was it to pull in the rail up to get the injectors out once you got the plenum off?

[skills4lou]

Pulling the rail was not very difficult at all. Rock it side to side, and remember that you're pulling on plastic. Watch the little clips that retain the injectors, they can fly off easy.

[dietzster]

NODIH,
Where are you getting the specs for fuel injectors? I have a set of injectors from a '06 7.0l corvette, I wonder if they would fit, and what the specs are?

[N0DIH]

I would have to see, I will try to find the dimension sheet I found a couple years ago.
If they are the same size as the LS1 and LS6 injectors, then yes, they will work.


BUT, I am quite sure they are pretty fat injectors, so the PCM will need tuning. Make sure whoever tunes it has all the data on the LS7 injectors, there is a lot more than just setting the injector size/flow rate.

[N0DIH]

Ok, digging I didn't find all of what I wanted, but this:

http://www.beekautoracing.nl/img/fuelinjectors.pdf for the injectors I have, mine are EV6's from a LS6. They are the long body EV6's. The measure 60.3 mm on the sealing surfaces. This is measured to the inside dimension of the o-rings.

The stock injectors we have are approx like these: http://www.racetronix.com/621050.html only smaller fuel flow. These are LT1 injectors (these are possibly what I might put in, which is higher flow which would help me run E85 better). which this injector comes in at 59.85, almost identical to the EV6 long body.

On my LT1 I had ZERO issues with dimensions, theonly issue was the ring to lock the injector on the rail, there is some slight differences, and gentle quick work with a dremel solved it (yes, you have to mod the injector slightly).

So if you are into leaving things stock, get some stock LS1 injectors from a 98-00 LS1 V8. Do NOT get the LS6 injectors off the 01-0x LS1's, they all got LS6 intakes and injectors and fuel rails, so the flow IS more, it is the same as the LT1 flow. Which is good for those wanting to make or who are making more power.

Making only the stock 290 hp, the fuel injector calculator comes up with a 22.6 lb/hr injector. This is dead on STOCK what we have (well, we have 19 lb/hr @ 3 bar, 22.5 @ 4 bar). If we move the power up to 350 hp (you guys know how easy that is!), it says we should be using 27.34 lb/hr injectors. This is in the ballpark of the LS6 and LT1 (they flow 24.5 @ 3 bar, 28.8 @ 4 bar) injectors. So if you are making more power, by all means run this injector. If you are upwards 400 hp, you need to be looking at 32 lb/hr injectors. NOTE! ALL of these flow rates are at 3 bar, aka, 43.5 psi. We run more, we run at 4 bar, so you need to "adjust"..... Confused yet?

http://www.iroczone.com/calcs/injectorsize.htm

Play at that link. If you get confused or wrapped around the axle, scream, I can sort it out, I learned the hard way, so I have a fairly good grasp....

You CAN run the fatter injectors without tuning, but it will run poorly at light throttle/cruise, but @ WOT it should be ok, but not perfect, as the PCM will LEARN from the part throttle.

Summary:
Replacement Injectors: 305 TPI, Ford 4.6/5.0L, 98-00 LS1, no tuning needed, 19 lb/hr @ 3 bar / 22.5 lb/hr @ 4 bar)
LS6/LT1 Injectors: 01-02 LS1/LS6, tuning needed, 24.5 lb/hr @ 3 bar / 28.8 lb/hr @ 4 bar)
Larger are easily found, GN Regal, SC 3.8L Ford, etc.

[bankspowered98]

So NODIH, which ones do you think I should use in my Supercharged application? The truck has some engine work done to it now as it sits and Friday the SC is going on. Monday the Water/Methanol kit from SNOWS Performance is getting putt on.

[N0DIH]

How much boost?
How much est horsepower?

Basically you have to support enough fuel for the hp the boosted engine will run, THEN you need to compensate for the reduced fuel pressure the engine will see under boost. Say if you are running 10 psi boost, and you have a 55 psi fuel delivery system, then under 10 psi boost, the end of the injector is referencing atmosphereic pressure+10 psi, so the actual fuel delivery is @ 45 psi, less than what you would be not under boost. So you need to add larger injectors for that. I would NOT be surprised if you needed in the 50 lb/hr range. The 454 can make stupid amounts of power, and you MUST support enough fuel for it.

My thoughts would be to go SC, then get a LS1 PCM in there with a HPT or EFILive custom OS and add a 2 bar MAP (most SC engines won't see over 2 bar anyway), 3 bar if you are crazy enough for a turbo.... You need to be able to have the PCM increase enough fuel for boosted, yet decrease enough for light throttle and not have poor fueling. The LS1 PCM can do it FAR better than the L29/L30L31 PCM can do. And it will properly reference boost pressure. There is no way to make the L29 PCM do a good job here.

The calcuator shows 46 lb/hr injectors, that is a rough calculation of 500 hp, SuperCharged @ 55 psi line pressure. But toss in 10 psi (a LOT for a SC!) that shows up 51 lb/hr. I would probably START at 50 lb/hr injectors. Avoid Lucas, they are common and are known for lots of quality issues with the discs... I would leave them alone. Even some Delphi ones aren't known to be good. Bosch are overall pretty darn good ones.

[bankspowered98]

Alright then. I also have a KB boost a pump coming to help out with the needed fuel. I am going to have to SC running at around 6-8 psi. Nothing really ridiculous since the motor has 10:1 compression. That makes up for some of the need PSI.

[N0DIH]

Just remember, given a choice a 7:1 compression engine would make a ton more power than a 9:1 compression engine and run more boost. Boost is more beneficial to power than compression. But, it is harder to change compression.... Case in point, my 301 Turbo. Stock was 8.5:1 or so compression, with a "HO Cam" (you would laught at the specs, but it still outran a 305 Chevy.... Even the L69 many years later....But the 301 HO ran 170hp, the 301 Turbo ran lower compression, a smaller cam (0.350 lobe lift!) and 250 degrees GROSS duration, and came in at 210 hp. And super simple tweaks on mine went from 210 hp to around 290 hp REAR WHEEL hp with only 7.5 psi boost. I ran 14.21@97.3 mph on 3.08's and 4030 lbs of not aerodynamic 2nd Gen Trans AM... With uber tiny valves (1.75"/1.5") too....

Design for boost if you can, get a cam designed for the SC. Carefully utilzing the overlap and opening/closing points to work ideal with a SC. A 454 with these heads/intake should be able to attain 600 hp EASY. Again, it is some internal engine work to do it. But gosh, it will be a monster.... Go DMAx hunting!!! They are blown, why not challenge us gassers to a pull off, blown to blown? Oh, because we would CRUSH them!

Like the guys who took a 6.5L TD and knocked downt he compression from 22ish to 16ish and made it run with the DMax's....

Good choice on the KB Boost a Pump, those help. If you can get a boost referenced regulator in there somehow that is also a big benefit. Once the reg thinks the ambient pressure is higher (referenced from boost) then it runs more power.

Note the FPR on our rigs is a pain to get to, you are likely going to need a one way check valve in that line to keep from damaging the FPR. Or go with one that can work (LT1 maybe, but move the lines around...) get a boost referenced one (Aeromotive I think has one)

[dietzster]

I think I just went crosseyed! All this high performance stuff is fairly new to me, I usually deal with stockers. I have alot of reading to do, thanks for the info.

[N0DIH]

Read up on the 3800 SC, GN Regal, Turbo Sunbird, etc. Even the Turbo 301 Trans AM/Formula. GM knows a lot and has come a LONG way since the 301 Turbo and the Turbo 215. The 3.8L Turbo's and GN Turbo's were GM's learning test beds. The The 3800 SC's are great motors, check the injector size of them, I think they are in the 30-35 range @ 3 bar, so @ 4 bar, they might be a good choice. Look for a core engine going back to the rebuild shop if parts like that can be taken off..... Makes some parts low buck....

The more of the GM school books you can get, grab. They are dry reading sometimes. But they are good references. One of my neighbors used to teach at the GM tech school in St. Louis, and wrote at least one of those books. I have some old ones he gave me, good stuff when you can sift through it all.

[bankspowered98]

Alright, I will aim for that stuff you suggested. I am planning on going and hunting down some of these diesels around that say stroke this and all that lovely stuff. We will see what they say when they get handled by a gasser with boost...they can have a power adder, so can we.

[bankspowered98]

Dietzster, i see you did a power mirror swap, how did that work out for ya?

[N0DIH]

First I have heard of it... What is the swap?

I am in need of a pair of mirrors, mine is a heated/dimming mirror truck, and the pass side was gone with a plain non adjustable non dimming, non heated... And just recently my left side the mirror popped out, and my wife tried to push it in and it cracked, so it has to be replaced.

GM gets $500 EACH. Junkyards, $250 each.... Owch... I LOVE the heated/dimming.... So does my wife...

Originally Posted by bankspowered98

Dietzster, i see you did a power mirror swap, how did that work out for ya?

[heavy454]

Bankspowered when you get the supercharger and meth installed/tuned can you PLEASE if its not too much trouble get some pics and possibly video?! It has been my dream for a long time now to whipple mine and get meth injection, and since i cant have it just yet i would just like to get a peek.